26. Unweirding Change with Michael Bungay Stanier
Explicit content warning
05/19/25 • 42 min
1 Listener
Despite an explosion of frameworks, toolkits, and “best practices,” the success rate of organizational change hasn’t improved in over a decade. For all the decks, comms plans, and transformation initiatives being sold, most companies still find themselves stuck, repeating the same plays and hoping for different results.
This week, Rodney Evans welcomes back Michael Bungay Stanier—best-selling author, host of the new podcast Change Signal, and longtime friend of the show—who’s on a mission to cut through the noise and find what actually works. They explore why change still feels so weird, the real leverage points for shifting individual and organizational behavior, and whether it’s finally time to retire “change management” as we know it.
Get a copy of Michael's change quadrants he talks about in this episode here: Michael's quadrants.
Learn more about Michael:
- Follow him on LinkedIn
- Listen to his podcast, Change Signal.
- Subscribe to his newsletter, The Change Signal.
- Check out his website, MBS.works
- See his two prior appearances on our show, BNW Ep. 19 and BNW Ep. 75.
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Ready to start changing your organization? Let's talk! https://www.theready.com/working-together
Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here.
Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery:
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Mentioned references:
- Jason Fox's episode: AWWTR Ep. 17
- John Kotter and the 8 Steps
- Depthfinding and the "Zones"
- Ron Heifetz
- Immunity to Change, book by Robert Kegan and Lisa Lahey
- Peter Block
- Winston Churchill "We Shape Our Buildings"
- Maslow's hierarchy of needs
- Larissa Conte: BNW Ep. 151
- Katie Milkman: Change Signal Ep. 2
- Caroline Webb: Change Signal Ep. 5
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro + Check-In: Do you have a non-work related goal that you’re working towards right now?
9:59 Michael’s journey to un-weird change
14:49 Michael’s individual and organizational unlocks for change
21:24 Importance of strong foundational habits to succeed in change work
25:37 Understanding of power dynamics in change work
33:27 Outdated change mindsets to let go of
38:38 Rodney and Michael’s takeaways
40:28 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share the show with your coworkers!
Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.
Despite an explosion of frameworks, toolkits, and “best practices,” the success rate of organizational change hasn’t improved in over a decade. For all the decks, comms plans, and transformation initiatives being sold, most companies still find themselves stuck, repeating the same plays and hoping for different results.
This week, Rodney Evans welcomes back Michael Bungay Stanier—best-selling author, host of the new podcast Change Signal, and longtime friend of the show—who’s on a mission to cut through the noise and find what actually works. They explore why change still feels so weird, the real leverage points for shifting individual and organizational behavior, and whether it’s finally time to retire “change management” as we know it.
Get a copy of Michael's change quadrants he talks about in this episode here: Michael's quadrants.
Learn more about Michael:
- Follow him on LinkedIn
- Listen to his podcast, Change Signal.
- Subscribe to his newsletter, The Change Signal.
- Check out his website, MBS.works
- See his two prior appearances on our show, BNW Ep. 19 and BNW Ep. 75.
--------------------------------
Ready to start changing your organization? Let's talk! https://www.theready.com/working-together
Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here.
Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery:
--------------------------------
Mentioned references:
- Jason Fox's episode: AWWTR Ep. 17
- John Kotter and the 8 Steps
- Depthfinding and the "Zones"
- Ron Heifetz
- Immunity to Change, book by Robert Kegan and Lisa Lahey
- Peter Block
- Winston Churchill "We Shape Our Buildings"
- Maslow's hierarchy of needs
- Larissa Conte: BNW Ep. 151
- Katie Milkman: Change Signal Ep. 2
- Caroline Webb: Change Signal Ep. 5
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro + Check-In: Do you have a non-work related goal that you’re working towards right now?
9:59 Michael’s journey to un-weird change
14:49 Michael’s individual and organizational unlocks for change
21:24 Importance of strong foundational habits to succeed in change work
25:37 Understanding of power dynamics in change work
33:27 Outdated change mindsets to let go of
38:38 Rodney and Michael’s takeaways
40:28 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share the show with your coworkers!
Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.
Previous Episode
Depthfinding: Putting It All Into Practice
In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges.
This week, Rodney and Sam reflect on what they’ve learned over the course of this eight-part miniseries—about the framework, their own Midnight Zones, and what it means to navigate complexity amidst uncertainty. They share how their thinking has evolved since launching the series, when Depthfinding is most useful (and when it’s not), and why every organization eventually has to ask: Who are we designing for?
The end of the miniseries isn’t the end of Depthfinding. Now it’s time for you to dive in.
Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it.
Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding
--------------------------------
Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here.
Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery:
--------------------------------
Mentioned references:
- Bob Vila
- The Ready's OS Canvas
- "strategy pancakes": AWWTR Ep. 2
- "even/overs": BNW Ep. 44
- "op rhythm": BNW Ep. 118
- Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio
00:00 Intro + Check-In: What is the warning label on the back of your box?
04:26 Depthfinding’s impact on our work
08:19 New discoveries from the miniseries
13:50 Limitations of Depthfinding
16:34 Troubleshooting consultants stuck in one zone
22:14 What’s next for Depthfinding
25:14 What’s next for the podcast
27:11 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share the show with your colleagues
This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio.
Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.
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