Neurodiversity and Self Directed Learning with Naomi Fisher

04/07/21 • 56 min

Rogue Learner

Show Notes

Jenna starts the show by describing her family's learning philosophy and home education style. My family has been home educating now for approximately 9 months and we’ve chosen self directed education as our approach to learning. What does that mean exactly? Well, it basically means that our children control what, when and how they learn. We actually refrain from labeling “learning” as we believe as humans we are always learning and there aren’t particular subjects or skills that trump others. Our two children are unique and require very different learning environments, resources, and lengths of time to learn new skills. We respect that and do our best to provide a conducive environment where their educational pursuits can be achieved. We do our best, as their facilitators, to enhance their environment and open the world to them, in the hopes that they can explore and learn without limitations.
This week’s episode is a continuation of a conversation with Naomi Fisher, a clinical psychologist and author of ‘Changing Our Minds’.
Two quick announcements Jenna wanted to share are:
- The Rogue Learner App will be open for the public to test. It’s an app designed for home educating families to record their learning and daily activities, books they’ve read, and any other pertinent information related to their learning journey. The app is developed to be a quick and fun way of documenting your life. It’s formatted as a photo/diary entry design. You can become a tester for the app and secure a lifetime discount by downloading the app here!
- Jenna will be taking a four week break and ending season I of the podcast with this episode. Season II will drop in a few weeks and features interviews with Peter Gray, Sophie Christophy and Summer Jean. Jenna will be working on other projects related to the website, blog and podcast. You can connect with her in the FB group on my Facebook page or Instagram.
- Families who’d like to featured on the podcast should reach out to Jenna at [email protected]. She will be working on a series for the podcast where she interviews a few families on a semi-regular basis to find out how they are implementing self-directed learning and what benefits or challenges they’ve faced along their journey.
Jenna asks Naomi about neurodiverse children and autonomy, particularly focusing on children who may not have the ability to self-regulate yet. Naomi says that every child is unique and you can not make assumptions about anyone else's experience based on your own. She goes on to explain how sometimes having a hard rule may benefit children or families because it can actually enhance learning opportunities. In some cases, the ambivalence of having too many choices or a particular choice that they can’t say no to, makes it difficult for them to focus on anything else. (just as we are these days with our phones) She uses the example of eliminating a in-app purchasing mobile game that her son played years ago, as it created a deficit in learning due to his fixation on buying gems for the game.
It’s important to always have the opportunity for change however, because eventually our children will need to make these determinations on their own (in this example, how to self-regulate with video gaming) once they are living on their own. Gradually moving toward self-regulation is helpful in this situation.
One fixed ideology won’t create a world in which we don’t have to be flexible and make changes to our lives. We can’t put our parenting or learning on auto-pilot because family needs are evolving and changing every day. Staying flexible and not prescribing a blanket ideology to your life is important.
Naomi gives two wonderful guiding principles to consider: “ Is what I’m doing helping my child to learn?” and “Is it opening up the world for them?”
Autonomy within what the child can manage at the time is the key, but simultaneously parents must always be willing to challenge their assumptions. Is this really true? For example: “Kids should know how to read by the age of 5.” Is this a schooled assumption? Have you challenged this idea? Have a look at the research.
When we’re talking about neurodiversity, we’re talking about how people relate to the world and how their brains interpret the environment. It generally includes people who have diagnoses of; ADHD, Autism, Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, Dyscalculia.
Neurodiversity is more than just the characteristics of the person, it’s also about how the world around them responds to them. In this way, the severity of their disability is in relation to how negatively they are impacted by their environment.
School can make the environment more disabling for these neurodiverse children.
With self-directed education, we can look at how a child interacts with the world and create an...

Show Notes

Jenna starts the show by describing her family's learning philosophy and home education style. My family has been home educating now for approximately 9 months and we’ve chosen self directed education as our approach to learning. What does that mean exactly? Well, it basically means that our children control what, when and how they learn. We actually refrain from labeling “learning” as we believe as humans we are always learning and there aren’t particular subjects or skills that trump others. Our two children are unique and require very different learning environments, resources, and lengths of time to learn new skills. We respect that and do our best to provide a conducive environment where their educational pursuits can be achieved. We do our best, as their facilitators, to enhance their environment and open the world to them, in the hopes that they can explore and learn without limitations.
This week’s episode is a continuation of a conversation with Naomi Fisher, a clinical psychologist and author of ‘Changing Our Minds’.
Two quick announcements Jenna wanted to share are:
- The Rogue Learner App will be open for the public to test. It’s an app designed for home educating families to record their learning and daily activities, books they’ve read, and any other pertinent information related to their learning journey. The app is developed to be a quick and fun way of documenting your life. It’s formatted as a photo/diary entry design. You can become a tester for the app and secure a lifetime discount by downloading the app here!
- Jenna will be taking a four week break and ending season I of the podcast with this episode. Season II will drop in a few weeks and features interviews with Peter Gray, Sophie Christophy and Summer Jean. Jenna will be working on other projects related to the website, blog and podcast. You can connect with her in the FB group on my Facebook page or Instagram.
- Families who’d like to featured on the podcast should reach out to Jenna at [email protected]. She will be working on a series for the podcast where she interviews a few families on a semi-regular basis to find out how they are implementing self-directed learning and what benefits or challenges they’ve faced along their journey.
Jenna asks Naomi about neurodiverse children and autonomy, particularly focusing on children who may not have the ability to self-regulate yet. Naomi says that every child is unique and you can not make assumptions about anyone else's experience based on your own. She goes on to explain how sometimes having a hard rule may benefit children or families because it can actually enhance learning opportunities. In some cases, the ambivalence of having too many choices or a particular choice that they can’t say no to, makes it difficult for them to focus on anything else. (just as we are these days with our phones) She uses the example of eliminating a in-app purchasing mobile game that her son played years ago, as it created a deficit in learning due to his fixation on buying gems for the game.
It’s important to always have the opportunity for change however, because eventually our children will need to make these determinations on their own (in this example, how to self-regulate with video gaming) once they are living on their own. Gradually moving toward self-regulation is helpful in this situation.
One fixed ideology won’t create a world in which we don’t have to be flexible and make changes to our lives. We can’t put our parenting or learning on auto-pilot because family needs are evolving and changing every day. Staying flexible and not prescribing a blanket ideology to your life is important.
Naomi gives two wonderful guiding principles to consider: “ Is what I’m doing helping my child to learn?” and “Is it opening up the world for them?”
Autonomy within what the child can manage at the time is the key, but simultaneously parents must always be willing to challenge their assumptions. Is this really true? For example: “Kids should know how to read by the age of 5.” Is this a schooled assumption? Have you challenged this idea? Have a look at the research.
When we’re talking about neurodiversity, we’re talking about how people relate to the world and how their brains interpret the environment. It generally includes people who have diagnoses of; ADHD, Autism, Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, Dyscalculia.
Neurodiversity is more than just the characteristics of the person, it’s also about how the world around them responds to them. In this way, the severity of their disability is in relation to how negatively they are impacted by their environment.
School can make the environment more disabling for these neurodiverse children.
With self-directed education, we can look at how a child interacts with the world and create an...

Previous Episode

Choosing the right Learning Environment for Your Kids with Naomi Fisher

Show Notes | Part I

Jenna first discovered Naomi Fisher’s work through the Offtrail Learning Podcast hosted by Blake Boles. She then discovered the comprehensive YouTube video produced by The Phoenix Education Trust called The Psychology of Self Directed Learning by Naomi Fisher. Her most recent work, a book she wrote called ‘Changing Our Minds’ was published in February 2021 and is highly recommended by Jenna as a comprehensive guide to self-directed learning.
Naomi and Jenna had an interview previously that didn’t get recorded due to technical difficulties, but there were a few takeaways from having had that experience which relate to education. One of them was that as it is in schools sometimes, having a time constraint created pressure and stress on my brain and made it more likely for me to be careless and inattentive. Jenna compares this to timed tests in school.
We are all fallible and it’s important for our kids to see us struggling and then our resiliency through times of stress and discomfort.
Being vulnerable and experiencing failure are something we traditionally try and avoid, but embracing it as part of the experience and congratulating yourself on overcoming those moments of rejection are really critical to demonstrating mastery in something.
Naomi started writing her book without thinking about it ever being published. It was such a niche topic that she wondered if it’d even be read. She decided to write it anyway because she knew the process of writing it would be useful to her anyway - she would learn how to write a book through writing a book.
Naomi describes her experience writing the book. She wondered if she needed some sort of course or credentials. Sometimes we think we need specific credentials or permission to start projects, but we really just need to get started. Courses are valuable, yet not essential to getting started.
As her son approached school age, she felt strange about sending her son into the school environment and giving up complete control over how he was talked to, what he did, who he spent his time with, after having been so intentional about that during his first years. Knowing her son’s personality and needs, she was worried he wouldn’t comply with the group norms, which would have made school quite difficult for her son.
They chose to unschool because their son was opposed to any structured learning.
As her kids got older (ages 7 and 10), she noticed how increasingly difficult it was to meet both of their needs simultaneously since they had completely different interests.
Jenna’s kids are much the same and they’ve been using Galileo’s online school as a resource to help offer diverse clubs and activities that each of her kids can participate in at their discretion.
Our environment greatly impacts what is essential to learn and priority to learn specific skills. For example, if you move to France, French is most important to learn.
Two ways of self directed learning: interest-led (watercolour painting) and things you need to learn in your environment (like language).
As unschooling parents, it’s important to ask ourselves: How can we expand the environment for your child?
Making sure we are giving our children the opportunity to interact in the world and speak with people of varying perspectives, backgrounds and cultures is how unschooling can elevate the educational experience for your family.
Some schools, like Montessori and Waldorf, can actually impose more restrictions than we’re aware of and are based on our perceived beliefs about freedom. When you choose a school for its pedagogical beliefs, you’re often choosing a lifestyle for the whole family.
When you choose a specific school based on your child’s natural interests, learning style and preferred environment, then it can be a great solution.
When control becomes visible, then we need to evaluate how we are impeding on our children’s freedom and autonomy. How can we move forward in a way that the parents and children are both getting their needs met?
School provides us with certain rules and parameters, so for unschooling families,they must determine on their own, which boundaries and rules are going to work best for their lives. It takes time and flexibility.
Autonomy can actually be encouraged by teaching children necessary skills for living in their culture. Cooking is an example Jenna used with her son. He gained autonomy by learning how to cook a variety of foods for himself when he isn’t happy with selection at di...

Next Episode

The Six Optimizing Conditions for Self Directed Education with Dr. Peter Gray

Dr. Peter Gray

Peter Gray is a research professor of psychology at Boston College who has conducted and published research in neuroendocrinology, developmental psychology, anthropology, and education. He is author of an internationally acclaimed introductory psychology textbook (Psychology, Worth Publishers, now in its 8th edition), which views all of psychology from an evolutionary perspective. His recent research focuses on the role of play in human evolution and how children educate themselves, through play and exploration, when they are free to do so. He has expanded on these ideas in his book, Free to Learn: Why Unleashing the Instinct to Play Will Make Our Children Happier, More Self-Reliant, and Better Students for Life (Basic Books). He also authors a regular blog called Freedom to Learn, for Psychology Today magazine. He is a founding member and former president of the nonprofit Alliance for Self-Directed Education (ASDE), which is aimed at creating a world in which children’s natural ways of learning are facilitated rather than suppressed. He is also a founder of the nonprofit Let Grow, the mission of which is to renew children’s freedom to play and explore outdoors, independently of adults. He earned his undergraduate degree at Columbia College and Ph.D. in biological sciences at the Rockefeller University many years ago. His own current play includes kayaking, bicycling, cross-country skiing, vegetable gardening, chopping wood for his home’s wood-burning stove, and writing occasional sonnets.

Facebook

Show Notes

Dr. Peter Gray has spent years researching how children naturally learn. He focused on play and what children are doing when they play and the function of play. He’s interested in play from an evolutionary perspective, children’s nature that comes about by natural selection to serve the function of education.
As Jenna was researching self directed learning, she came upon the six optimizing conditions for self directed education and found it extremely helpful in guiding her toward an environment at home that was ideal for learning.
Dr. Gray developed the six optimizing conditions for self directed learning based on what he studied at The Sudbury Valley School and through surveying ten anthropologists who had studied and lived among 7 different hunter-gatherer communities. He found many similarities between the hunter-gatherer communities and the students at Sudbury Valley School.
The first condition is the social expectation and reality that education is children’s responsibility. Dr. Gray observed that children come into the world biologically designed to educate themselves. Right from the beginning, children are curious and figuring things out on their own initiative. If adults believe that children need to be forced to learn, we can talk them out of the idea that they’re responsibility. We essentially send them the message that their curiosity doesn’t count. The adults in the child’s environment are not conveying the view that the adult is responsible for their education.
Jenna asks where does that that idea come from that adults have to educate children?
Dr. Gray explains that the original purpose for education was to teach obedience. Autonomy was valued in hunter-gatherer bands, but agriculture changed all of this. An hierarchy arose by way of land ownership. This led to feudalism, whereby everyone was dependent on the land owners. It became imperative that Serf parents teach their children to obey for their own survival in this hierarchical world. The original schools were developed by Protestants in Prussia. There were three purposes for schools at that time; reading (as it was very common at that time for average day families to be literate), indoctrination (save children’s souls), teach obedience. Willfulness was sinfulness. Children were meant to memorize content, otherwise they’d be punished. Nobody questioned it. Most teachers don’t have this goal in today’s modern world, however they are entering into a school system which was never designed for that and is incapable of promoting creativity, critical thinking and a love for learning. The only way you can pass in school is to do what you’re told to do and the only way to fail is to not do what you’re told to do. So even today, the goal is still obedience.
The second optimized condition for SDE is unlimited freedom to play, explore, and pursue their own interests. Kids need lots of time to do this, essentially all day. Kids from the age of about four on through late teenage years in hunter-gatherer communities had all day to play and explore. This is the same way Sudbury Valley School models their school. It allows children to exercis...