Rogue Learner

Dr. Peter Gray

Peter Gray is a research professor of psychology at Boston College who has conducted and published research in neuroendocrinology, developmental psychology, anthropology, and education. He is author of an internationally acclaimed introductory psychology textbook (Psychology, Worth Publishers, now in its 8th edition), which views all of psychology from an evolutionary perspective. His recent research focuses on the role of play in human evolution and how children educate themselves, through play and exploration, when they are free to do so. He has expanded on these ideas in his book, Free to Learn: Why Unleashing the Instinct to Play Will Make Our Children Happier, More Self-Reliant, and Better Students for Life (Basic Books). He also authors a regular blog called Freedom to Learn, for Psychology Today magazine. He is a founding member and former president of the nonprofit Alliance for Self-Directed Education (ASDE), which is aimed at creating a world in which children’s natural ways of learning are facilitated rather than suppressed. He is also a founder of the nonprofit Let Grow, the mission of which is to renew children’s freedom to play and explore outdoors, independently of adults. He earned his undergraduate degree at Columbia College and Ph.D. in biological sciences at the Rockefeller University many years ago. His own current play includes kayaking, bicycling, cross-country skiing, vegetable gardening, chopping wood for his home’s wood-burning stove, and writing occasional sonnets.

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• Dr. Peter Gray has spent years researching how children naturally learn. He focused on play and what children are doing when they play and the function of play. He’s interested in play from an evolutionary perspective, children’s nature that comes about by natural selection to serve the function of education.
• As Jenna was researching self directed learning, she came upon the six optimizing conditions for self directed education and found it extremely helpful in guiding her toward an environment at home that was ideal for learning.
• Dr. Gray developed the six optimizing conditions for self directed learning based on what he studied at The Sudbury Valley School and through surveying ten anthropologists who had studied and lived among 7 different hunter-gatherer communities. He found many similarities between the hunter-gatherer communities and the students at Sudbury Valley School.
• The first condition is the social expectation and reality that education is children’s responsibility. Dr. Gray observed that children come into the world biologically designed to educate themselves. Right from the beginning, children are curious and figuring things out on their own initiative. If adults believe that children need to be forced to learn, we can talk them out of the idea that they’re responsibility. We essentially send them the message that their curiosity doesn’t count. The adults in the child’s environment are not conveying the view that the adult is responsible for their education.
• Jenna asks where does that that idea come from that adults have to educate children?
• Dr. Gray explains that the original purpose for education was to teach obedience. Autonomy was valued in hunter-gatherer bands, but agriculture changed all of this. An hierarchy arose by way of land ownership. This led to feudalism, whereby everyone was dependent on the land owners. It became imperative that Serf parents teach their children to obey for their own survival in this hierarchical world. The original schools were developed by Protestants in Prussia. There were three purposes for schools at that time; reading (as it was very common at that time for average day families to be literate), indoctrination (save children’s souls), teach obedience. Willfulness was sinfulness. Children were meant to memorize content, otherwise they’d be punished. Nobody questioned it. Most teachers don’t have this goal in today’s modern world, however they are entering into a school system which was never designed for that and is incapable of promoting creativity, critical thinking and a love for learning. The only way you can pass in school is to do what you’re told to do and the only way to fail is to not do what you’re told to do. So even today, the goal is still obedience.
• The second optimized condition for SDE is unlimited freedom to play, explore, and pursue their own interests. Kids need lots of time to do this, essentially all day. Kids from the age of about four on through late teenage years in hunter-gatherer communities had all day to play and explore. This is the same way Sudbury Valley School models their school. It allows children to exercis...

Show Notes

• Jenna starts the show by describing her family's learning philosophy and home education style. My family has been home educating now for approximately 9 months and we’ve chosen self directed education as our approach to learning. What does that mean exactly? Well, it basically means that our children control what, when and how they learn. We actually refrain from labeling “learning” as we believe as humans we are always learning and there aren’t particular subjects or skills that trump others. Our two children are unique and require very different learning environments, resources, and lengths of time to learn new skills. We respect that and do our best to provide a conducive environment where their educational pursuits can be achieved. We do our best, as their facilitators, to enhance their environment and open the world to them, in the hopes that they can explore and learn without limitations.
• This week’s episode is a continuation of a conversation with Naomi Fisher, a clinical psychologist and author of ‘Changing Our Minds’.
• Two quick announcements Jenna wanted to share are:
• • The Rogue Learner App will be open for the public to test. It’s an app designed for home educating families to record their learning and daily activities, books they’ve read, and any other pertinent information related to their learning journey. The app is developed to be a quick and fun way of documenting your life. It’s formatted as a photo/diary entry design. You can become a tester for the app and secure a lifetime discount by downloading the app here!
  • Jenna will be taking a four week break and ending season I of the podcast with this episode. Season II will drop in a few weeks and features interviews with Peter Gray, Sophie Christophy and Summer Jean. Jenna will be working on other projects related to the website, blog and podcast. You can connect with her in the FB group on my Facebook page or Instagram.
  • Families who’d like to featured on the podcast should reach out to Jenna at [email protected]. She will be working on a series for the podcast where she interviews a few families on a semi-regular basis to find out how they are implementing self-directed learning and what benefits or challenges they’ve faced along their journey.
• Jenna asks Naomi about neurodiverse children and autonomy, particularly focusing on children who may not have the ability to self-regulate yet. Naomi says that every child is unique and you can not make assumptions about anyone else's experience based on your own. She goes on to explain how sometimes having a hard rule may benefit children or families because it can actually enhance learning opportunities. In some cases, the ambivalence of having too many choices or a particular choice that they can’t say no to, makes it difficult for them to focus on anything else. (just as we are these days with our phones) She uses the example of eliminating a in-app purchasing mobile game that her son played years ago, as it created a deficit in learning due to his fixation on buying gems for the game.
• It’s important to always have the opportunity for change however, because eventually our children will need to make these determinations on their own (in this example, how to self-regulate with video gaming) once they are living on their own. Gradually moving toward self-regulation is helpful in this situation.
• One fixed ideology won’t create a world in which we don’t have to be flexible and make changes to our lives. We can’t put our parenting or learning on auto-pilot because family needs are evolving and changing every day. Staying flexible and not prescribing a blanket ideology to your life is important.
• Naomi gives two wonderful guiding principles to consider: “ Is what I’m doing helping my child to learn?” and “Is it opening up the world for them?”
• Autonomy within what the child can manage at the time is the key, but simultaneously parents must always be willing to challenge their assumptions. Is this really true? For example: “Kids should know how to read by the age of 5.” Is this a schooled assumption? Have you challenged this idea? Have a look at the research.
• When we’re talking about neurodiversity, we’re talking about how people relate to the world and how their brains interpret the environment. It generally includes people who have diagnoses of; ADHD, Autism, Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, Dyscalculia.
• Neurodiversity is more than just the characteristics of the person, it’s also about how the world around them responds to them. In this way, the severity of their disability is in relation to how negatively they are impacted by their environment.
• School can make the environment more disabling for these neurodiverse children.
• With self-directed education, we can look at how a child interacts with the world and create an...

• Doubt and fear come up a lot within homeschooling forums and groups.
• It’s natural to feel doubt and fear when you’re choosing something unconventional for your family. Media and social norms make it difficult for us to stay confident in our choice to homeschool.
• Jenna shares a list of ways to realign with your values and boost your confidence.
• 1. Remember your “why”- On days when you’re feeling a bit low, you can try to remind yourself of the reasons you decided to homeschool in the first place.
• 2. Observe + reflect - sit with your child and make mental notes about what they are doing. Consider asking them; What do you like about this game? What else do you want to know about it? What’s the best part of it? What are your favorite things about it? How did you get into this? Where did you learn about it? Who else do you know that likes this? After gathering the information for a week, you will get a better understanding of what your child is learning from the activities they are choosing and learn about ways you can better support them if needed. Reflection is important in unschooling. We need to always be asking ourselves questions and considering how we can adapt and change to accommodate our learners.
• 3. Focus on the positives - Construct a list of ways your child is learning and thriving. Ask yourself; what opportunities have you been able to offer your child that wouldn’t have been possible in a traditional school setting?
• 4. Reconnect with your Child - join your children in activities they enjoy. Take the time to see the world through their eyes. Make getting to know them one of your high priority projects. Show him that you understand *him*. To build a relationship with your child is to connect with him as he truly is, not with an idealized version of a child you have in your mind.
• 5. Build your confidence by increasing your knowledge base - Has it been a while since you read a book about self- directed learning or had a conversation about it with someone? Perhaps it’s time to rebuild your knowledge base. Fear of the unknown is crippling sometimes, but informing yourself is liberating. When asked about your homeschooling approach, do you freeze up? Are you capable of explaining self directed learning to people confidently? If not, it’s a good idea to hit the books. One easy way to avoid developing fear is by collecting information about a topic. Keep learning more about self directed learning, check out my resource page where you can find podcasts, blogs, books, and YouTube videos about self directed learning. Join a webinar or take a workshop every now and then, just to stay up-to-date and gain insight. There are tons of resources out there! Start getting curious. But remember, this requires constant revisiting. You’ll forget things and need reminders. Listening to this podcast is a great place to start!
• 6. Get support - Open the world to your child. You are not meant to be everything to your kids. Lean on others to fulfill areas you don’t feel as strong in. In fact, for self-directed learning to be optimal, you need to invite other humans into your world and create a web of caring individuals that your children can tap into for various things. Make sure you’re taking care of yourself too. Find ways which will help your whole family get their needs met.
• 7. Concentrate on your strengths - Don’t forget you have strengths too! Sit down and make a list, or better yet, get input from your family and friends if you can’t see them for yourself. You have so much to offer your kiddo, perhaps you just aren’t seeing it. Use your strengths on a daily basis, so you feel like you’re providing something meaningful to your family. If your strength is writing, consider writing notes to your kids. If you are great at math, could you invite your kids to play a game with you or use math in everyday tasks together or by creating a project together?
• 8. Hang up quotes and/or mantras where you can see them - This is a fun way to remind yourself each and every day of what you find important. You can hang these on the fridge,

frame them and put them on the wall, or simply write it on a sticky note next to your laptop.

One of my favorite John Holt quotes is;

“It is as true now as it was then that no matter what tests show, very little of what is taught in school is learned, very little of what is learned is remembered, and very little of what is remembered is used. The things we learn, remember, and use are the things we seek out or meet in the daily, serious, nonschool part of our lives.”

– John Holt

• 9. Continue to deschool - Asking ourselves questions like; “is this true” and “why do I think this?” can help us to reveal our true thoughts and feelings and reassess ...

On today's show, I'm talking with Heidi Steel. She lives in the UK and has unschooled her children from the very beginning. She's a former teacher, and now spends her time advocating for unschooling and sharing her experiences with other families. She also coaches families as they transition to unschooling and as they need support on her website Live.Play.Learn. She shares why she decided to unschool her kids, her thoughts on uninterrupted play and how we can identify the learning taking place. She also talks about our role in facilitating our children as they grow. She has 10 years of experience, so I'm really eager for you to hear her story.

Victoria Ransom

Victoria Ransom is a serial entrepreneur from New Zealand. She has developed four companies including Wildfire Interactive, a social marketing SaaS company, where Ransom was CEO until it was sold to Google in 2012. She was named Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award for New Zealand in 2011. Fortune Magazine honored her as one of the Forty Most Powerful Women Under Forty in 2012. In 2013, she was invited to the White House by President Barack Obama to receive a "Champion of Change" award recognizing her contributions as an immigrant entrepreneur. In 2015, she was awarded the World Class New Zealander award along with former New Zealand Prime Minister, Helen Clark. In 2016, she was NEXT Woman of the Year in the Business and Innovation category.

In 2020, Ransom co-founded Prisma, a remote education startup. Victoria has been interviewed by Bloomberg News, The Corner Office, The New York Times and The Wallstreet Journal.

https://www.joinprisma.com/

https://www.facebook.com/joinprisma/videos/the-prisma-story-vision/1128347837551554/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzqdwPI1kFylYq19kQ1F18g

https://twitter.com/victoria_ransom

https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoriaransom

Jenna’s intro: Jenna begins the show by reminding listeners that they can leave a voicemail for the podcast and she will read it on the show. Good or bad, she wants your input! Your comments, feedback and suggestions are much appreciated. You can find the link here.

Jenna introduces Victoria and explains that while the online school Prisma is not completely self-directed, it can be a good fit for families with kids that need more structure or are eager for more of a community in light of challenges to group meet-ups during the pandemic. Prisma is an alternative flex school with five week cycles during the year. This makes it a good choice for unschoolers to participate in and for world schoolers who do a lot of traveling.

Victoria tells us a bit about her journey. She is the mother of three and her journey in education began when her oldest reached school age. One thing that concerned her with traditional education was the rapidly changing world we live in, which she believed needed a broader skill set than conventional schools could provide. She was also concerned about the fierce competition and stressful environment, especially where she lives in northern California. She researched homeschooling, alternative and micro schools. She wanted a flexible environment where children could be led by their interests. Something that focused on problem solving and critical thinking. This is when she began to imagine creating something that would not only be best for her own children, but for other families as well.

Jenna asks Victoria to tell us who Prisma serves. What do the families enrolled in Prisma look like?

Victoria says that a common thread is that most of the parents at Prisma want their children to love learning. They are looking to Prisma to provide a toolbox that can help them be able to do many types of work by teaching them critical thinking and problem solving. The kids should be challenged and excited.

Jenna asks about the ages and prior circumstances of the children enrolled in Prisma.

Victoria tells us that the program currently serves grades 4 - 8 at the moment with plans to expand. Prisma grew quite a bit during Covid19 because many children were homeschooling. With Prisma, families found much more flexibility versus a traditional school moved to online. Some of the kids in Prisma are gifted and just felt bored or unchallenged at school. Some have difficulties that made conventional school difficult for them. These children thrive when they are able to move at their own pace. Victoria mentions that Prisma does do some assessment tests and academic growth is occurring.

Jenna asks what a typical Prisma day looks like.

Victoria says that students meet up several times a day. There are workshops, learner clubs, and projects. Coaches help a few kids at a time. Each of the 5 week cycles has a theme. For example, one cycle the theme was “Unchartered Territories.” Within this theme some of the subjects they learned about were space and deep sea exploration. Also, the children regularly do presentations for the parents. In core subjects math, writing and reading the children learn skills that they can apply to real world problems.

Jenna asks how th...