66: Is Incrementalism Enough to Fix the Criminal Legal System w/Jeff Blackburn
Explicit content warning
11/16/22 • 77 min
1 Listener
Can people incarcerated afford to wait for small, gradual change? What happens to the people incarcerated if the system breaks? What is the right balance between the needs of the current case vs the needs of the future case? How do Public Defenders counter the decades long strategy of the Conservative legal movement with their own strategy?
All these questions, and more, are pondered by Hunter and his guest today, Jeff Blackburn. During his career, Jeff worked as a criminal defense attorney, impact litigation lawyer and helped to found and operate the Texas Innocence Project. Through it all, Jeff’s aimed to foster and execute a strategic vision for indigent defense and civil liberties that counter’s the work of prosecutors and police. In his eyes, public defenders and other justice minded individuals are in the conflict business and the must learn to value the future battles as much as the current ones. To fail to do so will leave them fighting a battle against an enemy that already made the fight unwinnable, but what is the right balance?
Hopefully, this discussion and the myriad of questions that arise from it will spark your own thinking about how to move towards more strategic levels of thinking.
Guest:
Jeff Blackburn, Criminal defense and Impact attorney, Co-Founder, Texas Innocence Project
Key Takeaways:
- Jeff’s career [8:30]
- What is impact litigation [16:24]
- Victory in the Tulia Case and the Lesson’s learned from it [17:20]
- The Texas Innocence Project [21:54]
- Impacts of the Tim Cole Case [26:00]
- Learning strategy from the history NAACP Legal Fund [28:30]
- Countering the Conservative Legal Movement [33:38]
- Is Incrementalism Enough [38:30]
- How to balance current case vs future case [46:00]
- The structural/historical obstacles in many state [53:20]
- What happens if the system breaks [57:40]
- Is education the way to solve this [1:01:00]
- The case for hope [1:10:00]
Resources:
Tulia Case:
https://www.aclu.org/other/racist-arrests-tulia-texas
https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2002-04-19/85638/
https://www.myplainview.com/news/article/5-million-settlement-reached-in-Tulia-lawsuit-8757623.php
https://www.salon.com/2003/04/09/tulia_2/
Tim Cole’s Case
https://innocenceproject.org/cases/timothy-cole/
Jeff Calling out Dallas’ Wrongful Conviction Issues
Why Jeff Left the Innocence Project
More of Jeff’s Work
austinchronicle.com/news/2008-04-04/608555/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Can people incarcerated afford to wait for small, gradual change? What happens to the people incarcerated if the system breaks? What is the right balance between the needs of the current case vs the needs of the future case? How do Public Defenders counter the decades long strategy of the Conservative legal movement with their own strategy?
All these questions, and more, are pondered by Hunter and his guest today, Jeff Blackburn. During his career, Jeff worked as a criminal defense attorney, impact litigation lawyer and helped to found and operate the Texas Innocence Project. Through it all, Jeff’s aimed to foster and execute a strategic vision for indigent defense and civil liberties that counter’s the work of prosecutors and police. In his eyes, public defenders and other justice minded individuals are in the conflict business and the must learn to value the future battles as much as the current ones. To fail to do so will leave them fighting a battle against an enemy that already made the fight unwinnable, but what is the right balance?
Hopefully, this discussion and the myriad of questions that arise from it will spark your own thinking about how to move towards more strategic levels of thinking.
Guest:
Jeff Blackburn, Criminal defense and Impact attorney, Co-Founder, Texas Innocence Project
Key Takeaways:
- Jeff’s career [8:30]
- What is impact litigation [16:24]
- Victory in the Tulia Case and the Lesson’s learned from it [17:20]
- The Texas Innocence Project [21:54]
- Impacts of the Tim Cole Case [26:00]
- Learning strategy from the history NAACP Legal Fund [28:30]
- Countering the Conservative Legal Movement [33:38]
- Is Incrementalism Enough [38:30]
- How to balance current case vs future case [46:00]
- The structural/historical obstacles in many state [53:20]
- What happens if the system breaks [57:40]
- Is education the way to solve this [1:01:00]
- The case for hope [1:10:00]
Resources:
Tulia Case:
https://www.aclu.org/other/racist-arrests-tulia-texas
https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2002-04-19/85638/
https://www.myplainview.com/news/article/5-million-settlement-reached-in-Tulia-lawsuit-8757623.php
https://www.salon.com/2003/04/09/tulia_2/
Tim Cole’s Case
https://innocenceproject.org/cases/timothy-cole/
Jeff Calling out Dallas’ Wrongful Conviction Issues
Why Jeff Left the Innocence Project
More of Jeff’s Work
austinchronicle.com/news/2008-04-04/608555/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Previous Episode
65: What Happened to the Prisoners Stuck in Jail During Hurricane Ian? w/Kathy Smith
1 RecommendationsFor Public Defenders who serve in coastal areas, the story on toady’s show will be all too familiar. As Hurricane Ian barrelled toward the Florida coast, a state of emergency was declared and evacuation plans started to come together, but as is almost always the case, no one thought of those incarcerated.
Today, Hunter spoke with Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender in the 20th Judicial District of Florida, to discuss the impacts of the storm on those left in jail. Dating as far back as memory allows, state’s failed their obligations to protect the lives of people both in and out of jail when natural disasters strike, and Hurricane Ian was no exception. For days, people, many of whom were in jail simply because they could not afford to pay bail, lived with raw sewage and without clean drinking water.
Luckily, no one died from the state’s neglect, but this episode serves as a powerful warning and reminder for those with a duty to protect people’s lives: when a natural disaster strikes, remember the people who cannot evacuate and think of a way to keep them alive.
Guest:
Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender, 20th Judicial District, Florida
Key Takeaways:
- How Kathy got into this work [6:50]
- Historical response to natural disasters in the 20th District [10:50]
- The response to Hurricane Ian in the 20th District [12:34]
- Who was in the Ft Meyer’s jail and what conditions did they face [18:27]
- Why pre-trial release is so important [24:42]
- Impacts and the way forward after Ian [26:41]
- Does Florida care about the Constitution or just the part it likes? [31:00]
- Changes for the Future [34:43]
- People arrested during the storm [38:00]
- Advice to other Public Defenders [41:20]
Resources:
USA Today Coverage of those left behind after Ian
People left in prison during:
Hurricane Ike, Maria, Matthew, Irene etc.
Contact Hunter Parnell:
Next Episode
67: Managed Assigned Counsel: A Savvy Solution or a Simple Stop Gap? w/Jim Bethke
Can a managed assigned council system be a workable solution to indigent defense problems?
Jim Bethke is the former executive director of the Texas Indigent Defense Commission and the current director of the Managed Assigned Counsel Office in San Antonio. In this episode, he talks about the system that he helped create and the areas he thinks still need work.
There are three main types of indigent defense representation delivery models: full-time public defender, office contract counsel, and assigned counsel. Texas relies heavily on assigned council, and there are both pros and cons to that. Jim explains why the system is structured this way and its strengths and weaknesses.
Then, he talks about the impressive work he’s doing in San Antonio to ensure fair representation for all and the ways his office is supporting behavioral health intervention.
Overall, Jim has an incredibly vast career in public defense and a wealth of knowledge to give. After listening, you’ll finally know your take on assigned council in public defense.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Background on Jim’s career in public defense. [6:03]
- What surprised Jim when he took over the Texas Indigent Defense Commission. [23:16]
- Why Texas has managed assigned council. [25:46]
- Reasons some of the larger Texas cities don’t have a public defender office. [32:22]
- Pay rates. [38:22]
- Behavioral health programs. [44:01]
- What is happening in response to Dobbs. [56:49]
- Where Jim wants to see the future of Texas public defense go. [1:04:23]
Guest:
Jim Bethke, Director, Managed Assigned Counsel Office, Bexar County, Texas
Resources:
How Lubbock became the model for Indigent Defense
Public Defense Innovation in Texas Law Review
Bexar County Managed Assigned Counsel
Memorable Quotes:
“We are the voice of the poor. They have no voice.” (23:00, Jim)
“A managed assigned council program in many regards is more challenging to run than a public defender office because you're utilizing private attorneys. They're independent contractors, and you can encourage and you can promote and you can provide support, but you can't really direct their operations like you can with an employee.” (27:33, Jim)
“Some folks in the private bar are not that good, but you have also some incredible talent. And if you can get that incredible talent to participate as part of your either managed assigned or private defender, in some regards, you're going to have even better than a public defender.” (35:24, Jim)
“In the numbers that we're dealing with in rural Texas, it's not going to break the bank to get a constitutionally compliant system that's good and fulfills our constitutional and state law requirements.” (55:28, Jim)
“Your rights are only as good as you can defend them in a court of law.” (56:38, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:[email protected]
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