08: Why Did Indiana's Public Defense System Fail? w/Larry Landis

Explicit content warning

02/09/22 • 63 min

When it comes to public defense, Larry Landis is a legend.

As the former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council, Larry has been in public defense since the 1970s and has worked with some of the biggest names in the industry.

As the architect of the current Indiana indigent defense system, he explains how the reimbursement model Indiana runs on came to be and how it affects people trapped in the legal system.

Because Larry has been in this industry for so long, you’ll get a unique behind-the-scenes view of the Indiana indigent defense system that you won’t get anywhere else!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Larry’s background + an overview of his impressive career
The evolution of public defense infrastructure in Indiana
Larry’s past legislative work to improve Indiana public defense
When the speediness of a trial gets in the way of a fair one
Why misdemeanors in Indiana are not reimbursed
The vilification of public defenders
Winning back communities that have lost faith in public defenders
How we can encourage law students to see public defense as a legitimate career opportunity

Guest:

Larry Landis, Former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council

Resources:

Sixth Amendment Center Report Indiana

2017 Task Force on Indiana Indigent Defense

2020 American Bar Association Workload Study

Memorable Quotes:

“There’s too many cases trying to fit through a small funnel.” (6:40, Larry)

“We have tried numerous times to increase reimbursement for misdemeanors, but I’ve never been successful.” (12:25, Larry)

“Lawyers are no different than most people, they can be desensitized and numbed by the fact that they’re not providing effective representation. My position is they need to be much stronger at advocating and challenging the system and refusing to be enablers” (21:01, Larry)

“The adversarial system is designed for once that accusation is lodged, game on in terms of that, that train is rolling down the tracks. And if you don’t have someone to slow it down, you’re going to prison.” (38:52, Larry)

“There’s gotta be consequences right now, there’s virtually none. So the lawyers can get away with curing corners, counties can underfund it, and there’s no consequence.” (49:52, Larry)

“We have this idea that people who require indigent defense are the worst of the worst of society. When in reality, the vast majority of them are low-level offenders who given enough opportunity, given the resources and not just discarded from society can again be productive members.” (57:04, Hunter)

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www.publicdefenseless.com

When it comes to public defense, Larry Landis is a legend.

As the former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council, Larry has been in public defense since the 1970s and has worked with some of the biggest names in the industry.

As the architect of the current Indiana indigent defense system, he explains how the reimbursement model Indiana runs on came to be and how it affects people trapped in the legal system.

Because Larry has been in this industry for so long, you’ll get a unique behind-the-scenes view of the Indiana indigent defense system that you won’t get anywhere else!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Larry’s background + an overview of his impressive career
The evolution of public defense infrastructure in Indiana
Larry’s past legislative work to improve Indiana public defense
When the speediness of a trial gets in the way of a fair one
Why misdemeanors in Indiana are not reimbursed
The vilification of public defenders
Winning back communities that have lost faith in public defenders
How we can encourage law students to see public defense as a legitimate career opportunity

Guest:

Larry Landis, Former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council

Resources:

Sixth Amendment Center Report Indiana

2017 Task Force on Indiana Indigent Defense

2020 American Bar Association Workload Study

Memorable Quotes:

“There’s too many cases trying to fit through a small funnel.” (6:40, Larry)

“We have tried numerous times to increase reimbursement for misdemeanors, but I’ve never been successful.” (12:25, Larry)

“There’s gotta be consequences right now, there’s virtually none. So the lawyers can get away with curing corners, counties can underfund it, and there’s no consequence.” (49:52, Larry)

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www.publicdefenseless.com

Previous Episode

07: The Power of Creating an Independent Public Defense System w/Ben Baur

Today, I speak with Bennet Baur, the Chief Public Defender of New Mexico.

With the power of the people behind them, Ben Baur and the New Mexico Public Defenders were able to find independence and fight for desperately needed reforms.

Yet a decade after gaining independence, the Law Offices of the Public Defender can handle only one-third of the cases they carry.

This week, join us as we uncover what is going right, what is going wrong, and how our community is put in danger because of a lack of public defense funding.

Bennet Baur is a wonderful example of what happens when a public defender cares about personal freedom.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Bennet’s role and how his office came to be [3:49]
Important public policy issues in new Mexico public defense [8:10]
The 2007 caseload report that was done on New Mexico public defense [11:19]
Why public defense should be the baseline on how cases are charged [12:52]
The problems with a flat fee system [22:56]
What happens when a client is waiting for representation [35:29]
Problem with probations and how they are moving into a harm reduction model [41:12]
Representation of migrants [47:52]

Guests:

Bennet Baur, Chief Public Defender at New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender

Resources:

American Bar Association New Mexico Project

2007 Caseload Study

2021 Caseload Study

New Mexico Public Defender Website

New Mexico Safe

Memorable Quotes:

“It’s also policy, you know not just advocating for our clients, but advocating for what we think is good public policy.” (7:32, Ben)

“Because I work in the system, I believe that over-incarceration, that just putting people in jail, isn’t going to solve the problem.” (10:05, Ben)

“When those mistakes interact with a human being’s life, liberty, and their ability to make a living, those are mistakes that can’t happen.” ( 20:32, Hunter)

“The system is based upon is lawyers doing a lot of work for free for the state. And that's not the way that this should work. It shouldn’t be up to a lawyer to do work for free, which is what happens to provide ethical representation.” (28:11, Ben)

“Give us more money or give us fewer cases.” (33:49, Ben)

“I’ll say it again. We missed the point of these bail reforms. There are certain individuals who, because of poverty, are not a threat to the community and are in jail.” (38:01, Hunter)

“I hate that we as a society always have an overreaction to everything that happens, whether it’s on the left or right, or something bad happens that we don’t like. And then we over-correct, so we make it just as bad. And we can't get that pendulum to just sit right in the middle where it works ” (39:11, Hunter)

“You shouldn’t fund government services on poor people.” (40:13, Ben)

Next Episode

09: What Can Cannabis Reform Teach us About Criminal Justice Reform with Christian Sederberg

Marijuana legalization is a hotly debated subject, so it’s no wonder there’s so much misinformation surrounding it.

Today’s guest, Christian Sederberg, is here to teach you the truth.

Christian is a founding partner at Vincente Sederberg LLP, a national law firm that tackles drug reform.

This week, he will walk you through the complicated subject of marijuana legalization, from lobbying efforts to local advocacy.

He’ll teach you the misconceptions around the marijuana industry and by the time you’re done listening, you’ll be able to form your own informed opinion.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

What Christian’s law firm does [4:28]
The policy side of Marijuana legalization [6:19]
Christian’s work in the mental health arena [20:45]
Health equity in the marijuana industry [29:16]
Where we should allocate tax dollars [33:16]
Marijuana crimes in legal states [41:36]
Why it’s hard to start a small business in the marijuana industry [47:11]
Christian’s long-term goals for marijuana policy [52:45]

Guest:

Christian Sederberg, Founding Partner at Vicente Sederberg LLP

Resources:

Vicente Sederberg Law Firm Bio

Marijuana Policy Project

Multipledisplenary Association for Psychedelic Studies

Headcount Voter Registration

To reach out to Christian: [email protected]

Memorable Quotes:

“When you move to actually treating addiction, you have lower rates of recidivism, your jails have less issues, and you have more resources that could be allocated to what people would consider more serious (quote-unquote) crimes.” (16:34, Hunter)

“Their argument was if we create a tax system that relies upon mental health, would rely upon these tax dollars to have these programs, then we'll never be able to get to our ultimate goal of banning these products.” (23:28, Christian)

“This country is shifting its frame that there can be responsible marijuana users. They’re not all potheads.” (34:06, Christian)

“We think we know what people need instead of engaging with them and asking, and actually having them tell us what they need.” (40:02, Christian)

“We're talking about the fundamental problem with American law enforcement, in my opinion, which is that we still have a lot of work to do on how we treat the poorest communities.” (42:46, Christian)

“We need to fundamentally shift our mindset, to look at all of these issues as public health issues and individual health issues, not as criminal justice issues.” (53:17, Christian)