Episode 12: Retrosuburbia with David Holmgren

11/19/20 • 72 min

Are you keen on the idea of permaculture but find the idea of starting an acreage in the country a bit much? Do your cortisone levels go through the roof whenever you see productive farmland being torn down for more cookie cutter suburbia? Are you baulking at the thought of perfectly good houses on your street being pulled down for battleship grey pre-fab concrete apartments? Would you prefer that you could do more things for yourself and with others at home rather than having everything outsourced for you at a price from the not-so-free market? According to David Holmgren, co-founder of permaculture, ‘Retrosuburbia’ can make all of this and more, a possibility.

But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast!

David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading!

In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role.

Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women.

If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'.

The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.

Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.

Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.

Previous Episode

Episode 11: To politik or not to politik, that is the question - with Kelvin Thomson

Another month, another bunch of elections. In Australia, we’ve just had the ACT elections, QLD elections, and Victoria council elections. I think that’s it. Oh yeah, there’s a small North American country having a federal election counting ballots as we speak. You may have heard about it.

Post-Growth still exists on the fringe and for most of us on the fringe voting can be a frustrating exercise choosing between who will lead us through several more years of growth on a finite planet. It can be even more frustrating for independents and minor parties who advocate for something better than the status quo – a seeming endless uphill climb full of long hours, campaign trails, etc. This being the case, is it better to opt out or opt in? PGAP host Michael Bayliss explores this question further with the Honourable Kelvin Thomson.

Kelvin is a former member of the Labor party and since 1981 has been elected for local council, State Government and, from 1996 served as Federal member for the inner-north Melbourne electorate of Wills for two decades.

Kelvin balanced longevity with a very unique and individual outlook that often put him at odds with mainstream politics. Kelvin was – and still is – an active champion for environmental conversation, campaigned against overdevelopment including the influence of property developers on political decisions, and perhaps most famously for his staunch position on population policy. This sometimes earned him the reputation as a ‘maverick’. I prefer to see it as rare integrity.

Since retiring from Federal parliament in 2016 Kelvin is now Chief of Staff for Victorian MP Clifford Hayes of Sustainable Australia Party (SAP). Kelvin discusses with me his journey from Labor to SAP, the successes and challenges he faced during his time in and out of office and why there is a place for politics in promoting the post-growth cause.

A qualifier: This podcast is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) who are apolitical and therefore do not endorse any one political party. However, during this episode I highlighted several political parties and candidates who have policies that have some common ground with the post-growth movement. In addition to Sustainable Australia, you may be interested in finding out more about Animal Justice Party, Save The Planet Party, New Liberals (definitely not like old Liberals), Australian Democrats, and Craig Walters. Know of any others? Let us know!

Speaking of Sustainable Population Australia, they recently released a discussion paper debunking the myths of an ageing population. Population sustainability is not always renowned for its cheeriness, however the discussion paper – “Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population” is not only a fantastic read but also quite upbeat. The discussion paper has enjoyed some positive media coverage the past week which is fantastic. You may also be interested in Kelvin's impassioned speech at SPA's 2019 AGM here.

And speaking on contacting PGAP, please don’t be shy! Our contact form is here. Want to feedback on any of the episodes or want to share your own post-growth ideas? I’d love to hear from you. Do you frequent Apple Podcasts or Stitcher? Then please rate PGAP and leave a review. The more reviews, the more listeners – which means the more people stop wanting more. If you’ll excuse the Paradox....

The song of choice today is from Adelaide band ‘The Tangerines.’ To find out more about The Tangerines, visit their website here.

Special Guest: THE HONOURABLE KELVIN THOMSON .

Next Episode

Episode 13: International Anti-Corruption Day with Cameron Murray

December the 09th marks ‘International Anti-Corruption Day’. This day was designated nearly 20 years ago by the ‘United Nations Convention against Corruption’ to raise awareness on corruption and its role in undermining democracy, stability and equity. Australia is no exception to this phenomena – one is hard pressed to find a major party politician who is NOT in bed with big business. If you want to be a state premier these days it is almost de riguer to have some scandal with some property developer or other. Since we all degree that ‘political favours’ are not exactly prime example of good leadership and altruism, why does this behaviour persist - over and over again, ad nauseum? PGAP host Michael Bayliss explores this further with Game of Mates co-author Dr Cameron Murray.

As a former property developer, Cameron provides the perfect insight as to what goes on behind closed doors in the property development industry, and how political favours, gained over time, leads to a culture of favouritism – a ‘Game of Mates’ if you please. Speaking of which, if you haven’t read the book of the same name, do so NOW. Cameron writes just like he speaks, which is to say engaging and fascinating – edutainment at its best. It also makes for great exposure therapy. I always knew the property industry was...let’s say a little skewed, but reading this book made me stimmy with rage on more than one occasion.

My discussion with Cameron was a great lesson for me in human psychology. I have often been frustrated why the community doesn’t rile against the property development industry more often – it is so rigged it is literally costing us billions of dollars a year and pricing out anyone out of the housing market who has the audacity to live on a five figure salary. But unlike the mining sector, which is full of eccentric Machiavellian villains, the property sector is conspicuously lacking (apart from the odd exception like Harry Triguboff). Generally speaking, property developers start of as well-meaning people who get caught up in a game of favouritism, wining and dining and rigging the system. Just like all of us do to some extent, they are simply looking out for their network of colleagues and friends, with a hefty dose of cognitive dissonance. Unlike the rest of us, however, this is done on a scale that undermines democracy, equity, housing affordability and wise town planning decision. The natural environment also goes down the gurgler. Individually, I learnt that property developers are often nice people. Collectively however, the culture has created a monster.

Cameron also discusses his views on population policy, modern monetary theory, his unique perspectives on capitalism and neo-liberalism, and his commitment towards critical thinking and avoiding 'isms', even when this has sometimes lead to controversy and heated debates.

I first met Cameron when filming his presentation "Economic Ageing Myths" at the forum hosted by Sustainable Population Australia in 2019. Since then, Sustainable Population has released a discussion paper on the ageing myth: "Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population." I am happy to share that the discssion paper has done very well since it launched in late October and has enjoyed good coverage in the print media.

This thirteenth episode is the final in the first season of Post Growth Australia Podcast – I am really proud of where PGAP has gone since I started it in July. In many ways it has exceeded most of my expectations and listener feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. Thank you all for supporting and for listening – after all, if a podcast is broadcast and there is no-one to listen, did the pod actually get cast? That is the existential question that I don’t have to answer just yet as you have all taken to PGAP so kindly. I would like to give my thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this project – it would not have been possible without them being so willing to support a new project in good faith.

I am taking a couple of months away to hit the road – 8 months of lockdown was a great way to get many projects started but the computer screen has long pas...