Post-Growth Australia Podcast

At PGAP, we have explored many different ideas and facets within the broad realm of Post Growth. Permaculture is a frequent topic on this podcast, so too is behaviour change and nature based spirituality. But what happens if you combine the best of both worlds? For example, the practicality of permaculture principles in conjunction with transpersonal psychology, energy meditation and nature connection facilitation? You get Dan and Johanna McTiernan, co-founders of Earthbound who live and manage a 6 acre homestead on Finland. Johanna and Dan are the guests of this episode of PGAP as we find out more about Earthbound.

Dan McTiernan is a certified transpersonal psychology coach and subtle energy meditation teacher and has been deeply involved in the permaculture movement as a teacher, entrepreneur, writer and homesteader for 15 years.

Johanna McTiernan is a certified subtle energy meditation teacher and a trained nature connection facilitator. With her husband, Dan, she has created permaculture projects including a community supported bakery in the UK, a regenerative olive and almond farm in Spain and a homestead in her native Finland. She is a lifelong seeker of meaning and meeting her family's needs in deep relationship with the land is her passion.

Earthbound, the project Dan and Johanna run, offers 1-1 and group coaching facilitating growth, connection and healing at the fertile edge between transpersonal psychology, embodied meditation & permaculture.

PGAP host Michael Bayliss first met Dan McTiernan through mutual connections with Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen. You can find out more about Holistic Activism here.

Interested in listening to more PGAP episodes on permaculture? You might be interested in the season 3 episode with Shane Simon on Zero Input Agriculture or Season 2 episode with Tania Brooks for our Tasmanian Perspectives mini series of interviews.

Would you prefer to listen to more episodes on behaviour change and spirituality? Our last episode with Paul Collins is a great listen. You might also like to travel back to season 1 for our interview with Darpan.

Did you like this episode of PGAP? Then share it far and wide! Rate and review on Apple Podcast. Subscribe to PGAP here. You can contact us here to let us know your thoughts on this and other episodes and what topics and guests you would like to see for future episodes.

The homepage for PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found here.

All views and opinions expressed by our guests, including references to their past and present work are totally their own and do not necessarily reflect any views or positions held by Post Growth Australia Podcast.

Special Guests: Dan McTiernan and Johanna McTiernan.

Are you keen on the idea of permaculture but find the idea of starting an acreage in the country a bit much? Do your cortisone levels go through the roof whenever you see productive farmland being torn down for more cookie cutter suburbia? Are you baulking at the thought of perfectly good houses on your street being pulled down for battleship grey pre-fab concrete apartments? Would you prefer that you could do more things for yourself and with others at home rather than having everything outsourced for you at a price from the not-so-free market? According to David Holmgren, co-founder of permaculture, ‘Retrosuburbia’ can make all of this and more, a possibility.

But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast!

David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading!

In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role.

Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women.

If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'.

The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.

Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.

Three inspiring women. Three powerful arguments why empowered women who choose smaller or childfree families are good for individuals, good for communities and arguably better for the planet. This is the case regardless of where in the world you happen to live - global north OR global south. Population is a contentious conversation starter - in large part because it is a very personal issue for all of us. Yet it is a conversation that we must have if we are to envision a future with less, rather than more, human impact. This incredibly special episode goes hand in hand with Sustainable Population Australia's 'Stop at 2' campaign as they launch Maxine Trump's documentary 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Theatres across Australia in late February.

Meet Florence Blondel - Ugandan born journalist and all round game changer. I stumbled across her powerful article for Earth Overshoot day and couldn't help but to be incredibly moved. It had me thinking that there is so much debate in the global north around family planning based foreign aid for women and communities in the global south and yet the perspectives from women who live in the global south themselves are often lost in the noise. Florence is no less moving and inspiring in interview than she is in writing - cutting through the myths and misperceptions with stunning clarity, wisdom and through her direct experiences and anecdotes. You can find out more about Florence's great work here.

Meet Maxine Trump - director of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', virtually the first English language documentary to explore the decision whether or not to have children. Maxine points the lens at herself - literally and figuratively - as she juggles over the course of the feature length film the pros and cons of motherhood and opting, ultimately to be childfree. It has received rave reviews from the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and having seen her film myself I can vouch for the unanimous praise! I chat with Maxine about her reflections following the making of the film as we anticipate the Australian premiere of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Australian cinemas in partnership with Sustainable Population Australia's 'Stop at 2' campaign. A trailer for the film can be seen here and it will be released soon on Amazon Prime for those who are unable to make it to the Melbourne or Perth screenings.

Meet Tanya Williams - Brisbane based author of 'Childfree Happily Ever After'. Tanya shares with me her personal journey in her decision to be proudly childfree and her life mission to spread the word and normalise the choice to be childfree across the globe. She has released a new 'Childfree Magazine' this month - again, virtually a first of its kind. You can find out more about Tanya, her book and the new magazine here.

As mentioned, Sustainable Population Australia will be hosting private screenings of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Melbourne on the 26th of February and in Perth on the 27th of February in cooperation with Transition Town Guilford. According to Sandra Kanck, national president of SPA: "The aim of the campaign is to normalise the choice of having small or childfree families. As an environmental NGO, we advocate for smaller families as one solution towards reducing pressures on the Earth and support those who go down that path." SPA has produced a couple of short interview films here and here examining the issue with a range of people, including those who have decided to be childfree and those who have decided to have families. The screening of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', later this month, will be an excellent finale to our two year long project. A media release on the 'Stop at 2' campaign can be found here.

Interested in seeing Maxine's movie for yourself? Glad you asked! More information on the Melbourne screening can be found here. More information on the Perth screening can be found here. We are crossing our fingers for a third time lucky - we tried to screen the film twice last year and COVID lockdowns got the better of us! There has been some recently excitement in both Perth and Melbounre with hotel quarrantine scares so we are really hoping the dust will settle through to the end of February at least!

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In the second part of the 'spirituality special' of PGAP, we interview Jim Villarreal of Gold Cap Integration Network to discuss that healing the world means healing the internal traumas that lie within us all. We also explore an exciting new movement called Holistic Activism which is seeking to bring together activism and mindful practices.

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Jimmy and I reunite after many adventures spanning the globe from Amazonian Peru to the Victorian Gippsland to discuss how the state of the world is in part informed by our conditioning and traumas. Jimmy shares his personal story of leaving behind a successful sales career in corporate America to start a brave new journey in assisting people with emotional and spiritual healing. We discuss how a transition to a better, post-growth world must at some point come from a place of internal transformation.

I also play a selection from a brand new guided mediation from Holistic Activism, designed for us activists in mind - but accessible to anyone and everyone. Holistic Activism is about 'reducing conflict among activists and creating campaigns that are long lasting while also reaching out and connecting with people who have different values to that of our own'. The aim is to do this in a manner that does not enable us to continue to repeat the mistakes of history. Holistic Activism is Australian based and currently maintains an online connection and presence during lockdown.

The meditation is narrated by Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen and I share it with his permission and blessing. We play a six minute extract of the full 16.5 minute Guided Meditation but the entire meditation can be found on the HA Soundcloud channel here. As the meditation is aimed at putting you into a calm and relaxed space, it might not be best to listen to this podcast while driving.

Special Guest: Jim Villarreal.

For the 06th episode of Post Growth Australia Podcast, we thought it was prime time to connect with the Post Growth Institute (PGI) themselves. After all, no post-growth advocate worth their salt should go through life without connecting with this wonderful, tireless hub of connectors and game changers at some point. Being the incredible international networkers they are, PGAP had the opportunity to speak with their Partnerships Manager, Kenyan born and raised Robert Wanalo.

Host Michael Bayliss takes us on a trip down memory lane – my nostalgic reminiscence probably induced by my cabin fever lockdown delirium – humour me. Firstly I recall the time I first discovered the Post Growth Institute through the Post Growth Alliance. It was during a time when I first came across ‘limits to growth’ and ‘financial collapse’ in a big way through the work of Richard Heinberg and Nicole Foss (links at the bottom). I joined the Melbourne based Doing It Ourselves on the basis of their actual hit video What The Economic Crisis Really Means – And What We Can Do About It. Within weeks of joining DIO I was their international liaison coordinator and instantly mesmerised by the sheer number of dedicated groups and organizations in the international sphere who were making post-growth a (ha ha) GROWING reality and not just a theoretical dream. It was a pleasure to share their campaigns across DIO’s social media networks at a time when DIO was still active. I therefore thank PGI (or blame on a bad day – just kidding) for setting me on this particular activist branch.

Another trip down memory lane was back in 2007 when I lived and worked in Kenya. I set off as a recently graduated student, with barely more than $1000 in my bank account and this being my first experience in any real interaction with the Global South. I went straight in the deep end, living and working in a small village on the less visited south-west corner of Kenya, where I laughed, cried, jumped in joy and went completely mad in a completely wild ride with some of the most gorgeous people and communities I have ever met in my life. Looking back, this was a rite of passage like none other.

It so happens that Robert Wanalo was practically my neighbour during that time who lived in an adjacent village. How’s that for two formative experiences coming together full circle!

It is an utter pleasure to connect with Robert. During the interview, he provides a unique perspective on post-growth in action through the lens of the Global South and more specifically, as it applies to Africa and Kenya. Within in the Post-Growth movement where so much of what we do is based around international collaboration, the interview with Robert highlights the importance that all perspective from around the world are critical. Indeed, as the Global North has been so instrumental in force-feeding inequitable, growth obsessed capitalism across the world over the last few centuries, so much of the wisdom for healing the world an ourselves is already there in the Global South – if we are all willing to listen.

Robert impressed with how greatly read and connected he is, I have made an attempt to link some of the groups, people and books he refers to throughout his interview. In fact, Robert is so well connected to people and place, that he was interviewed within a thriving hub with children, families, animals and the odd Matatu in the background. So, while I applied some noise filters to the interview, it may sound busy at times. The positive reframe is that this is what a thriving melting pot of community in action sounds like!
Moving forward, keep a lookout for PGI’s ‘Free Money Day’ on September 15th. Once again, PGI prove themselves to be the masters of ‘edutainment’, making a fun exercise out of the act of passing on money to complete strangers whilst reflecting on the ridiculousness of our current wealth hoarding system (based on supposed money that for the most part does not even really exist). Speaking of which, the nature of money should be the theme of a future episode of PGAP....

Stick around for next episode where author and activist Anitra Nelson where we discuss all things Degrowth and her new co-written book Exploring Degrowth: A Critical Guide

Support our local artists! The track of choice for this episode is the supberly titled 'This Modern World Is Built On Trash' by Melbourne based talent Sam Trowse. You can find out more about Sam Trowse (AKA Johnny) on