Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, Seth Godin, Section4)

08/28/22 • 53 min

1 Listener

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Wes Kao has worked with Seth Godin (where she co-founded the altMBA and served as executive director), David Perell on his Write of Passage course, Professor Scott Galloway on Section4, and Morning Brew. Currently, she’s the co-founder of Maven, a cohort-based learning platform where I taught my own course. Wes is passionate about telling stories that stay true to the creator’s intentions while keeping your audience listening. In today’s episode, you will learn how to use state changes to keep your audience engaged, how to communicate more clearly by focusing on the how more than the why, how to manage up for success, and how to communicate your priorities to set a boundary.

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Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/persuasive-communication-and-managing-up-wes-kao-maven-seth-godin-section4/#transcription

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Where to find Wes Kao:

• Website: https://www.weskao.com/

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/wes_kao

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/weskao/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible:

• Modern Treasury: https://www.moderntreasury.com/

• Berbix: https://www.berbix.com/start

• Makelog: https://www.makelog.com/lenny

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Referenced:

• The Super Specific How: How to make your cohort-based course more rigorous: https://www.weskao.com/blog/super-specific-how

• It Was the Best of Sentences, It Was the Worst of Sentences: A Writer’s Guide to Crafting Killer Sentences: https://www.amazon.com/Was-Best-Sentences-Worst-Crafting/dp/158008740X

• Guide to Better Business Writing (HBR Guide Series): https://www.amazon.com/HBR-Guide-Better-Business-Writing/dp/142218403X

• Seth Godin’s blog: https://seths.blog/

• The Minto Pyramid Principle: Logic in Writing, Thinking, and Problem Solving: https://www.amazon.com/Minto-Pyramid-Principle-Writing-Thinking/dp/0960191038

• Doctor Foster: https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Foster/dp/B01DT0WQ2C

• Suzy Batiz: https://www.suzybatiz.com/

• Amanda Natividad’s Marketing 201 course: https://maven.com/amandanat/content-marketing

• Dr. Marily Nika’s course: https://maven.com/marily-nika/technical-product-management

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In this episode, we cover:

[03:39] Wes’s early career

[07:08] How to land a job with Seth Godin

[09:56] What makes Seth Godin stand apart

[14:50] Wes’s framework for better writing: the super-specific how

[18:08] Writing and teaching without the BS

[21:45] State changes: how to keep your audience engaged when teaching

[25:51] The data of “eyes light up” moments

[29:27] What managing up can do for you

[32:51] How to manage up effectively

[34:17] Lenny’s template for proactive communication

[36:19] The skills you need to communicate clearly through writing

[43:50] How to pr...

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Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/persuasive-communication-and-managing-up-wes-kao-maven-seth-godin-section4/#transcription

—

Where to find Wes Kao:

• Website: https://www.weskao.com/

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/wes_kao

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/weskao/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible:

• Modern Treasury: https://www.moderntreasury.com/

• Berbix: https://www.berbix.com/start

• Makelog: https://www.makelog.com/lenny

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Referenced:

• The Super Specific How: How to make your cohort-based course more rigorous: https://www.weskao.com/blog/super-specific-how

• It Was the Best of Sentences, It Was the Worst of Sentences: A Writer’s Guide to Crafting Killer Sentences: https://www.amazon.com/Was-Best-Sentences-Worst-Crafting/dp/158008740X

• Guide to Better Business Writing (HBR Guide Series): https://www.amazon.com/HBR-Guide-Better-Business-Writing/dp/142218403X

• Seth Godin’s blog: https://seths.blog/

• The Minto Pyramid Principle: Logic in Writing, Thinking, and Problem Solving: https://www.amazon.com/Minto-Pyramid-Principle-Writing-Thinking/dp/0960191038

• Doctor Foster: https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Foster/dp/B01DT0WQ2C

• Suzy Batiz: https://www.suzybatiz.com/

• Amanda Natividad’s Marketing 201 course: https://maven.com/amandanat/content-marketing

• Dr. Marily Nika’s course: https://maven.com/marily-nika/technical-product-management

—

In this episode, we cover:

[03:39] Wes’s early career

[07:08] How to land a job with Seth Godin

[09:56] What makes Seth Godin stand apart

[14:50] Wes’s framework for better writing: the super-specific how

[18:08] Writing and teaching without the BS

[21:45] State changes: how to keep your audience engaged when teaching

[25:51] The data of “eyes light up” moments

[29:27] What managing up can do for you

[32:51] How to manage up effectively

[34:17] Lenny’s template for proactive communication

[36:19] The skills you need to communicate clearly through writing

[43:50] How to pr...

Previous Episode

The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group

What are common diseases of product teams, and how do you avoid them? Why should you focus less on problem discovery and more on solution discovery? How do you maintain your product mojo? After working as a product leader for over 20 years, Marty Cagan started Silicon Valley Product Group to help product teams operate at a higher level. In this conversation, Marty shares what Steve Jobs can teach you about building product, how to structure your teams for innovation, how to improve your product culture, which trends in PM to ignore, and much more. After this, you’ll never think about building teams the same way. Join us.

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Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/#transcript

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Where to find Marty Cagan:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/cagan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

• SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible:

• Whimsical: https://whimsical.com/lenny

• Flatfile: https://www.flatfile.com/lenny

• Modern Treasury: https://www.moderntreasury.com/

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Referenced:

• The Nature of Product: https://www.svpg.com/the-nature-of-product/

• Devolving From Good To Bad: https://www.svpg.com/devolving-from-good-to-bad/

• Shreyas Doshi: https://twitter.com/shreyas

• The Lost Interview: https://www.amazon.com/Steve-Jobs-Lost-Interview/dp/B01IJD1BES

• Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products that Create Customer Value and Business Value by Theresa Torres: https://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Discovery-Habits-Discover-Products/dp/1736633309

• Sprint: How to Solve Big Problems and Test New Ideas in Just Five Days by Jake Knapp: https://www.amazon.com/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/1442397683

• Patrick Collison on User Research: https://twitter.com/patrickc/status/1443215022029619200

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In this episode, we cover:

[03:46] The biggest misconceptions about what a good product team does and looks like

[07:49] The qualities that separate the best product teams

[16:20] The downfall of innovation in great product teams

[17:43] The gap between the best and the rest

[19:23] The pitfalls product teams can fall into

[27:46] The role of user research in building a great product

[35:26] What individual contributors can do to shift product culture

[41:04] How PMs can set themselves up for success when trying to change product culture

[44:06] How product management is changing

[55:33] The pitfalls Marty warns to watch out for in product management

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Production and marketing: https://penname.co/

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