Humans of Martech - 84: Tejas Manohar: The past, present, and future of Composable CDPs

84: Tejas Manohar: The past, present, and future of Composable CDPs

08/15/23 • 60 min

Summary: The future of CDPs, as envisioned by Tejas, is a more flexible, adaptable data architecture that Hightouch is actively shaping. Hightouch, even without the data collection component, is recognized by some of the largest companies in the world as their go-to CDP. Tejas stresses that the reconciliation of 'truth' in data between marketing and data teams isn't solely a tech or architecture problem; it requires an operational shift and closer collaboration between teams. The conversation serves as an essential guide for businesses seeking to optimize their data use and enhance customer experiences.

The Software solutions like Hightouch provide a solid framework to tackle this, but the human element—teamwork, alignment, and communication—remains a key determinant in solving these challenges.

From Corporate Travel to Reverse ETL: Teja's Journey Back to Data
When asked about the journey of reverse ETL's inception at Hightouch, Teja revealed the interesting twists and turns of his entrepreneurial path. His initial venture after leaving Segment wasn't directly into the data sphere. He founded a startup, Carry, in the corporate travel space.

However, Teja's departure from Segment wasn't just fueled by an entrepreneurial itch. He had reservations about the future trajectory of Customer Data Platforms (CDP). He didn't fully believe CDPs were set to become the standard for managing customer data across industries. With inklings of impending acquisitions and significant changes in the data industry, he left Segment.

Teja then spent about eight to nine months with Carry until the onset of COVID-19. Despite the inherent challenges of the travel industry—low margins, high human operation requirements, price-sensitive customers—Carry was growing. Yet, COVID-19 brought it to a grinding halt.

With business metrics falling to zero almost overnight, Teja and his co-founders, Auren and Josh, found an unexpected opportunity. They decided to pivot back to their roots in the data industry, tapping into their old ideas and experience from their Segment days. The pandemic, in all its harshness, became a catalyst for their return to the customer data space.

Teja's story is far from a linear narrative. The travel venture, the COVID-19 pivot, and the return to the data industry all added unique layers to his entrepreneurial journey. Looking back, Teja feels gratitude for these unexpected turns of events, which led him back to the dynamic world of data and customer platforms.

Takeaway: An entrepreneur's journey isn't always a straight path. Teja's experiences, from his departure from Segment to his foray into the travel industry and eventual return to data, highlight the unforeseen opportunities that can surface in the face of challenging times. His story underscores the importance of adaptability and leveraging past experiences to seize new opportunities in the ever-changing business landscape.

Composable CDP - The Birth and Journey of a New Paradigm
When asked about the emergence of the term "composable CDP" and the role Hightouch played in its inception, Tejas reminisced about the early days of this concept's birth.

Tejas recalled collaborating with one of their esteemed partners to develop a novel way of approaching Customer Data Platforms (CDPs), distinct from the traditional models. Their goal was to define an architectural blueprint that would resonate with a marketing audience while providing a fresh solution to existing CDP challenges. The result was the "composable CDP."

Despite its somewhat confusing nature, this term became a touchstone for their market positioning. But Tejas admitted, many terms in the martech world like "marketing cloud" or "engagement hub" often induce more head scratching than clarity. Their aim, however, was not merely to coin a catchy phrase but to address a pervasive dissatisfaction within the industry.

At the time, many large enterprises and mid-market companies were investing heavily in CDPs, hoping to enable marketers to freely explore customer data, create audiences, and tailor customer journeys across all channels. Yet, despite the widespread adoption, most were finding little value in these investments.

This stark discrepancy between aspiration and reality was the driving force behind Hightouch. The aim was not just to sell another CDP, but to propose an innovative approach that would enable marketers to leverage data more effectively across the organization. This approach advocated the utilization of the rich data sources already present in company warehouses, and activating it across various customer journey touchpoints.

Tejas highlighted that the core value of a solution should not be whether it's bundled or unbundled, but rather, the tangible business outcomes it can drive. As companies invest in housing their data using va...

The Software solutions like Hightouch provide a solid framework to tackle this, but the human element—teamwork, alignment, and communication—remains a key determinant in solving these challenges.

Previous Episode

83: Kate Nowrouzi: Mailgun's VP of Deliverability on email subdomain strategies and inbox placement tools

What’s up everyone, today we’re joined by Kate Nowrouzi, VP of Deliverability at Mailgun by Sinch.

Summary: Kate brilliantly dissected the complex realm of email marketing, highlighting the critical need for strategic decision-making and a meticulous, step-by-step approach to restore domain reputation. Drawing upon her unique shift from fighting spam to aiding marketers, she illuminated the nuanced layers of email deliverability. Reinforcing the superiority of genuine engagement over manufactured interactions, Kate underlined the importance of understanding audience needs, continuously refining strategies, and valuing quality over quantity. She also acknowledged the transformative potential of new technologies like BIMI, AMP, and machine learning, suggesting a forward-thinking approach for marketers willing to navigate the growing tech-driven competition.

About Kate

Kate started her career in network and anti-spam engineering roles at two major ISPs; Verizon and AOL
She then moved to the vendor side at Fishbowl, a Customer engagement platform for restaurant marketers where she led email deliverability operations
Kate's profound experience in email deliverability then guided her to a pivotal role as the SVP of Deliverability and Email Compliance at SparkPost, one of the industry’s most popular email delivery platforms
Kate’s also been Co-Chair of the Complaint Feedback Loop Committee at the
Messaging Anti Abuse Working Group
She’s an Advisor and Investor for various startups
She’s also an Advisory Board member of Persian Women in Tech, with a mission to
close the diversity and gender gap in STEM
Today, Kate serves as the VP of Deliverability & Product Strategy at Sinch, a public Customer Communications company that acquired Mailgun 2 years ago

Harnessing the Power of Insider Knowledge in Email Marketing

In a moment of reflection on her professional journey, Kate highlighted the value she gained from her tenure at AOL. She spent four vital years in the realm of anti-spam operations, an experience that she later brought to her roles at email service providers like SparkPost and Mailgun.

Kate began her career in the early 2000s as an anti-spam engineer at AOL, at a time when email marketing was gaining momentum. AOL led the way by offering the first robust spam report option to their members, a trend quickly picked up by other industry titans like Microsoft and Yahoo. However, her transition from ISP to the marketing side or Email Service Providers (ESPs), required a significant shift in mindset.

Working on the ISP side, Kate's primary focus had been on shielding members from malicious actors intent on infiltrating their inboxes. Yet, as she transitioned to the ESP environment, her role morphed. Now, she was aiding brands and marketers in ensuring their emails didn't raise spam red flags.

This drastic change in problem sets and operational goals required some adaptation. Kate noted the initial challenges of transitioning from one end of the business to another. However, she affirmed that her experience on the ISP side provided invaluable insights that helped guide brands away from appearing spammy in their email marketing efforts.

Takeaway: The shift from battling spammers to helping marketers get their emails into inboxes was a challenging, but enlightening journey for Kate. Her early career experience as an anti-spam engineer provided her with an insider’s understanding of what brands should avoid to not come across as spammy, proving to be an indispensable asset in her later roles at ESPs.

Shifting Perspectives From Spam Prevention to Marketing Delivery

Kate recalls an intriguing philosophical debate that arose during her tenure during her transition from an anti-spam role to an ESP environment. Having battled to block spam on one side and then striving to get marketing content into inboxes on the other, she found herself in a unique conundrum.

A memorable instance arose when Kate moved from AOL to Fishbowl, an email marketing platform for restaurants. One night, she was roused from sleep by an urgent issue: a major client's birthday campaign was being blocked by AOL or Yahoo. The client was Red Robin, and the blocking of their campaign was considered a serious matter. Kate, however, found this jarring. Was it worth losing sleep over a blocked birthday campaign, when her previous role had conditioned her to respond to potentially harmful breaches of privacy?

But as her colleagues stressed, the situation was indeed significant. Red Robin was a top-tier client and the success of their birthday campaign mattered. This incident served as a defining moment for Kate, reinforcing the fact that she was indeed on the other side of the business now, with a new set of priorities to consider.

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85: Arun Thulasidharan: Warehouse-native martech and an alternative pricing model

Summary: Arun clarifies 'warehouse-native' and 'connected' concepts, positioning Castled.io as a flexible solution that caters to specific customer needs. He addresses challenges in traditional martech, such as the disparity between customer base size and value derived, and presents Castled.io's unique solutions like an alternative pricing model and immediate data access. Arun navigates the issues of a warehouse-native approach, providing strategies for handling real-time data and minimizing compute charges. He cautions against seeing warehouse-native adoption as merely an escape from reverse ETL, emphasizing its potential to resolve existing martech problems and enhance functionalities. Arun encourages a positive attitude towards new, complex technologies, recognizing their transformative potential.

About Arun

Arun is a data engineer by trade with over a decade of experience building and scaling systems in the startup ecosystem
He started his career in software engineering roles at Applied Materials, an enterprise semiconductor manufacturer and later MiQ, a programmatic advertising media partner
Arun then joined Flipkart, known today as India’s largest e-commerce marketplace with a whopping 150 million customers
He then moved to the startup world joining Hevo Data as one of the first tech hires, a No-code ETL Data Pipeline platform that enables companies to consolidate data from multiple software
In 2021, Arun moved to San Francisco to co-found his first startup, Castled Data - A warehouse-native customer engagement platform that sits directly on top of cloud data warehouses
Along with his team of founders Arun was selected by YC in the Winter 22 batch

From Open Source Reverse ETL Tool to Warehouse Native CEP

When asked about the transformational journey of Castled.io, Arun shed light on the genesis of the company's vision. It was a time when businesses wanted to move their data from warehouses to various tools, yet the market lacked the means to do this efficiently. Recognizing this gap, Arun embarked on the mission to develop an open source, reverse ETL solution. His concept was founded on the idea that no one-size-fits-all tool could cater to the wide range of companies' diverse requirements.

This venture brought Castled.io a fair amount of traction, with many companies employing their open source solution in-house, and a growing clientele availing of their cloud-based offering. However, around this time, a critical analysis of the martech landscape provoked a pivot. Arun realized the long-term sustainability of reverse ETL solutions was questionable, especially with the burgeoning concept of warehouse-native apps. Other companies were beginning to develop their own reverse ETL tools.

Arun observed that these ETL solutions were not truly designed for data teams but rather marketing growth teams, signaling a limitation in their scope. The need to constantly shift data to different platforms like Intercom was dwindling, given alternative and more efficient methods emerging in the martech ecosystem. In fact, he believed that the popularity of these reverse ETL solutions might begin to wane within a year.

The most crucial feedback that inspired the transformation of Castled.io came directly from its target audience – the marketers. They indicated that a reverse ETL solution did not fully resolve their challenges, especially in scenarios where handling large amounts of data became a bottleneck for their existing tools. It became clear that simply copying data from warehouses to another tool wasn't an effective solution.

Prompted by these revelations and the rising acceptance of the warehouse-native concept, Arun and his team decided to pivot. They transitioned from being an open-source reverse ETL tool provider to building Castled.io as a solution directly layered on top of data warehouses. This move allowed them to bypass data migration issues and directly cater to the marketers' needs.

Takeaway: The journey of Castled.io highlights the importance of remaining adaptable and receptive to market changes and customer feedback. This awareness allowed the company to evolve from being an open-source reverse ETL tool to a robust, warehouse-native solution, directly addressing marketers' challenges. The company's pivot is a testament to strategic foresight and innovation in the martech space.

The Similarities of Open vs Closed and Composable vs Packaged CDPs

In the fiery debate around composed versus packaged CDPs, Arun weighed in with his unique viewpoint. He likened the contrast between these two approaches to the difference between open source and closed source systems.

From Arun's perspective, the appeal of composable CDPs lies in the flexibility they offer. This format enables innovation on top of the data warehou...