3 Things I Learned from My Divorce with writer Kelly McMasters

04/02/25 • 11 min

6 Listeners

In this heartfelt and poetic episode of Divorce Happens, Olivia Howell sits down with writer, professor, and single mom Kelly McMasters to explore the deep emotional work of divorce—and the self-discovery that follows. Kelly shares powerful quotes that helped anchor her through her own experience, including words from poets like Marie Howe and Joy Harjo. She explains how poetry offered moments of stillness, truth, and community when everything else felt uncertain.

Kelly opens up about the emotional weight of letting go of fantasies, expectations, and the version of love she once believed in. Together, she and Olivia reflect on how divorce often brings us back to childhood, revealing the roots of our beliefs about love, safety, and self-worth. Kelly also discusses her acclaimed book The Leaving Season, and how writing it helped her reclaim her story—not just as a divorcée, but as a mother, artist, and woman rebuilding home from the ground up.

This episode is a celebration of growth, honesty, and the surprising beauty of starting over. If you’re navigating the messy middle of divorce—or simply seeking insight into how we piece ourselves back together—you’ll walk away from this conversation feeling seen, supported, and inspired.

Transcription:

Olivia Howell: Hello, hello! Welcome back to Divorce Happens, the podcast where we support you before, during, and after divorce—with education, inspiration, and of course, a little bit of laughter. Because divorce happens, and then you start fresh. Today, I’m here with our friend Kelly. Kelly, who are you? What do you do? Where are you from?

Kelly McMasters: Hi! I’m Kelly McMasters. I'm a mom, a writer, a professor—and I’m divorced.

Olivia: I love that. One of our favorite things to do on this podcast is talk to people who’ve gone through divorce about what they’ve learned. I truly believe divorce is one of the most intense learning environments we’ll ever experience. So, Kelly, what were three things you learned from your divorce?

Kelly: I love that you used the word “environment,” because divorce really does have these amorphous borders—it’s all-encompassing. One thing I learned is how important it is to find small anchors. For me, poetry was one of those anchors. I was at a reading recently and in walked this famous poet—wild hair and all—and I realized it was Marie Howe. Her poetry helped me get through my divorce. I even used one of her lines to open my book:

“You think this happened only once—and long ago?”

That line has so many meanings, but to me, it means that in the moment of deep grief, it feels like you are completely alone—that no one else could understand. But the truth is, you are not alone. It’s a reminder to reach out in those dark moments.

Another quote that helped me is from Willa Cather’s The Professor's House:

“The heart of another is a dark forest, always, no matter how close it has been to one’s own.”

That quote reminded me that I had to let go of the fantasy. Let go of what I thought was true. That was the hardest part—letting go of expectations, hopes, and dreams so I could live in the real world again. Once I did that, everything shifted.

Olivia: Can you read that first quote again?

Kelly: “You think this happened only once—and long ago?”

Olivia: I love that so much. That resonates deeply with me. When you go through divorce, it often brings you back to who you were as a child. You start realizing that your definitions of love were formed way before your marriage. For me, it was even more of a personal rediscovery than motherhood. I had to uncover and heal the pieces of me that stayed in a marriage that wasn’t loving.

Kelly: Absolutely. That really resonates. Another poem that helped me is by Joy Harjo, called “Memory Sack.” It has three short lines:

“With our pack of memories / long slack on our backs / we venture into the circle.”

That helped me see divorce not as isolation but as entering into a new community.

Olivia: Yes! I get that completely.

Kelly: And Olivia, thank you for the work you do—bringing people together, creating this space. I didn’t have that when I was going through it. That’s one of the reasons I wrote The Leaving Season. Now, we have communities online, in bookshops, and through amazing authors like Amy Shearn, Maggie Smith, and more who are reshaping how we talk about divorce.

Olivia: When did you get divorced?

Kelly: Officially, in 2016. But I left in 2013.

Olivia: I feel like the last five years have completely changed the narrative around...

Transcription:

Kelly McMasters: Hi! I’m Kelly McMasters. I'm a mom, a writer, a professor—and I’m divorced.

“You think this happened only once—and long ago?”

Another quote that helped me is from Willa Cather’s The Professor's House:

“The heart of another is a dark forest, always, no matter how close it has been to one’s own.”

Olivia: Can you read that first quote again?

Kelly: “You think this happened only once—and long ago?”

Kelly: Absolutely. That really resonates. Another poem that helped me is by Joy Harjo, called “Memory Sack.” It has three short lines:

“With our pack of memories / long slack on our backs / we venture into the circle.”

That helped me see divorce not as isolation but as entering into a new community.

Olivia: Yes! I get that completely.

Olivia: When did you get divorced?

Kelly: Officially, in 2016. But I left in 2013.

Olivia: I feel like the last five years have completely changed the narrative around...

Previous Episode

How to Protect Your Home (and Sanity) During Divorce with Mortgage Expert Matthew DiBrino

6 Recommendations

In this powerful episode of Divorce Happens, Olivia Howell sits down with former divorce attorney and current mortgage expert Matthew DiBrino to unpack one of the most stressful parts of divorce: what to do about the house. With years of legal experience and now co-owner of High Quality Mortgage, Matthew brings a rare and compassionate dual perspective to navigating real estate during separation.

From understanding your mortgage options to knowing when and how to get pre-approved, Matthew offers actionable advice for anyone wondering what happens to their home during a divorce. He breaks down common scenarios like buyouts, refinancing, and why getting a mortgage pre-approval early in the process can save you time, money, and emotional stress.

Whether you're in the middle of a divorce or planning for a fresh start, this episode will help you feel more empowered and informed about one of the biggest assets involved in a separation. Plus, Matthew shares encouragement, real-life examples, and a refreshing approach to supporting clients as whole people—not just numbers on paper.

Learn more about Matthew DiBrino on his Fresh Starts profile: https://www.freshstartsregistry.com/resourceguide/high-quality-mortgage-llc

Divorce Happens Podcast: Episode Transcript with Matthew DiBrino

Olivia Howell (Host): Hello, hello! Welcome back to Divorce Happens, the podcast where we support you before, during, and after divorce with education, inspiration, and a little bit of laughter—because as we know, divorce happens, and then you start fresh. Today we’re here with one of our Fresh Starts experts, talking about a very important topic. Matthew, can you tell us who you are and what you do?

Matthew D. DiBrino: Sure! Hi, my name is Matthew DiBrino. I'm a former practicing divorce attorney. I began my legal journey in 1999, clerking for the Honorable Thomas F. Brogan in Passaic County, who was then in the Family Division. After that, I received incredible training from one of the best attorneys I know, Jose Bastyr in Paterson, New Jersey. I worked in divorce law for quite some time until about 10 years ago, when I left the practice and opened High Quality Mortgage. I haven’t practiced law in a decade, but I still work closely with divorce attorneys and their clients.

I also went through a divorce myself. And something to note—one of my mentors was Joseph Noda, one of the founders of the collaborative divorce process. That approach really focuses on making the process less contentious and more amicable.

Olivia: Absolutely. There’s really nobody better to talk to about this than you. When I went through my divorce, owning a home with my ex-husband brought up a lot of questions. The house is often the number one concern when people start considering separation. Let’s talk about that. What’s the first step if you have a mortgage and you’re starting the divorce process, but don’t know what you’re going to do with the home?

Matthew: Great question. The first thing you want to do is evaluate your options, which starts with getting a fair market appraisal of the home. That’s going to give you clarity. From there, you typically have three options:

Sell the home and split the proceeds (though that can be adjusted depending on the divorce terms).
One party buys out the other’s equity.
Refinance to remove one party from the mortgage and deed.

Let’s say there’s $100,000 in equity—$400,000 home value, $300,000 mortgage. That means each party is entitled to $50,000. If one spouse is buying out the other, they’d need to provide that amount to get them off the mortgage and deed.

The issue we often see is that agreements are made assuming one party can refinance—but later they find out they can’t qualify. I’d love to see pre-approvals happen much earlier—during mediation or early settlement panels—so that everyone knows what’s actually possible.

Olivia: That makes so much sense. And you can get pre-approved before you’ve even talked about divorce with your spouse, right?

Matthew: Yes, absolutely. Pre-approval depends on verifying income and pulling credit, which we can do independently from the spouse. Whether you’re salaried or self-employed affects how we calculate usable income. The only complication early on might be factoring in child support or alimony, if that will be a part of your income.

Olivia: So it’s better to get that clarity up front, even quietly, so you can mak...

Next Episode

How Listening Can Help You Heal After Divorce with Erin Snow, founder of Seacoast Listening Lounge

6 Recommendations

In this heartfelt episode of Divorce Happens, Olivia sits down with Erin Snow, founder of Seacoast Listening Lounge and longtime advocate for women navigating divorce. Erin shares how her work as a legal professional in family law and her own personal divorce journey led her to create a safe, confidential, and judgment-free space for people who need to be truly heard. Her listening sessions are not therapy—they're something just as vital: compassionate, intentional human connection.

Erin and Olivia dive into the emotional weight of not feeling heard during divorce, and how the ability to speak without fear or judgment can be transformational. Erin shares why active listening is a powerful tool in emotional recovery, why it’s often missing in divorce conversations, and how listening with empathy can shift everything. From "verbal smash sessions" to quiet, meditative listening spaces, Erin explains how every conversation is shaped by the individual’s needs in that moment.

If you’ve ever felt alone, overwhelmed, or unsure who you can talk to during a life transition, this episode is a must-listen. Erin reminds us that healing starts when we feel safe enough to share—and that we all deserve to feel supported, seen, and understood.

Learn more about Erin and Seacoast Listening Lounge: https://www.freshstartsregistry.com/resourceguide/seacoast-listening-lounge

Transcription: Divorce Happens Podcast with Erin Snow

Olivia Howell: Hello, hello, and welcome back to Divorce Happens, the podcast where we support you before, during, and after divorce with education, inspiration, and a little bit of laughter. Because, as we know, divorce happens—and then you start fresh. Today, we're here with one of our Fresh Starts experts, Erin Snow. Erin, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Erin Snow: Hi Olivia, thank you so much for having me! I’m really excited to be on the podcast. I’m Erin Snow, and I live in Seacoast, New Hampshire. I own Seacoast Listening Lounge, which is both an event space and a professional listening service for women who are looking to share their story in a safe and confidential space without judgment.

Olivia Howell: I love that! When Erin registered to be a Fresh Starts expert, we were like, "What is this? We’ve never heard of this before." I’m so excited to be showcasing you to the world because I love what you do. You have a long background in divorce advocacy and related areas. Let’s talk about the importance of listening during a divorce. Because often, people going through a divorce feel like nobody's listening to them. Why is active listening so important during that time?

Erin Snow: I can speak to this on both a professional and personal level. I worked in family law for over 16 years with New Hampshire Legal Assistance, handling high-conflict divorce, parenting, and protective order cases for domestic violence, stalking, and sexual assault survivors. Then I went through my own divorce. One of the reasons I started Seacoast Listening Lounge was because I saw a real lack of space where people could be heard—truly listened to—without judgment.

People going through divorce are under emotional and financial stress. You’re worrying about yourself, your kids, and how others will react. Having a space to just let it all out opens the valve. If we don’t create space to release that pressure, it builds up and becomes unmanageable. Empathetic listening doesn’t have to be hard, but it does require intention. It’s simply about letting someone know: “I’m here for you, no matter what you want to say.”

Erin Snow: When I was a paralegal, clients would come in, and I’d have a specific agenda—like calculating child support—but inevitably, they’d veer off into other topics. And instead of rushing to redirect, I learned to ask: What’s really going on here? Are they worried about money, about their kids? Sometimes you have to pause and create space for the person to speak before focusing on logistics.

Olivia Howell: Right, and I think so many people have never even been asked, "How do you want me to listen to you today?"

Erin Snow: Exactly. Creating that safe space can change everything. And personally, I know what it feels like to have no one to talk to. I didn’t share anything about my divorce—not even with friends. Most people didn’t know until they saw a U-Haul in my driveway. I was afraid of judgment, of how others would react. And because I had kids, I was especially careful about what I shared. My friends were also the parents o...