The Inner Game of Change
Ali Juma
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change podcast, where we dive deep into the complexities of managing organisational change. Tailored for leaders, change practitioners, and anyone driving transformation, our episodes explore key topics like leadership, communication, change capability, and process design. Expert guests share practical strategies and insights to help you navigate and lead successful change initiatives. Listen in to learn fresh ideas and perspectives from a variety of industries, and gain the tools and knowledge you need to lead transformation with confidence. Explore our episodes at www.theinnergameofchange.com.au, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Youtube or anywhere you listen to your podcasts.
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Top 10 The Inner Game of Change Episodes
Goodpods has curated a list of the 10 best The Inner Game of Change episodes, ranked by the number of listens and likes each episode have garnered from our listeners. If you are listening to The Inner Game of Change for the first time, there's no better place to start than with one of these standout episodes. If you are a fan of the show, vote for your favorite The Inner Game of Change episode by adding your comments to the episode page.
E63 - Mastering The Change Experience - Podcast with Andrew Butow
The Inner Game of Change
04/17/24 • 54 min
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change Podcast, where I explore the intricate layers of organizational change alongside insightful professionals.
Today, my guest is Andrew Butow; a change catalyst in the truest sense. As the founder and CEO of Earth2Mars, Andrew has dedicated his career to assisting organizations and individuals in understanding and navigating the complexities of change. With his expertise, Andrew brings a unique and invaluable perspective on how to thrive in an ever-evolving business landscape.
Andrew's passion for people-centric change and his hands-on approach have made him an influential figure in shaping future work environments for clients.
In this episode, Andrew and I have covered few key topics including the evolution of the change management profession, the healthy 'discomfort' we all need, the change experiences we would like to drive and many other topics including the GenAI capability.
I have learned so much from Andrew here. I hope you do too.
I am grateful to have Andrew chatting with me today.
About Andrew (In His own words)
As a change facilitator, I help businesses navigate the complex and ever-changing landscape of the future of work. With a focus on people-centric change, I work with organizations to define, plan, and execute change initiatives that achieve real outcomes through systemic alignment of people, processes, and technology.
With experience in HR, learning and development, coaching, and change initiatives, I bring a unique blend of consulting, design thinking, and behavioural science to any challenge. Some of my key achievements include co-founding Earth2Mars, working with leading brands like QBE and Lend Lease, and leading a project stream on the world's largest SAP/process transformation project with Africa’s energy giant Eskom.
I am passionate about people and believe that true success can only be achieved through people-centric change. I love helping force-for-good organizations, leaders, teams, and individuals shift their mindsets so that they are fully committed and empowered to find their space in the universe, now and in the future, so we can make history.
Contacts
LinknedIn
linkedin.com/in/abutow1
Website
earth2mars.com.au (Company)
Ali Juma
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E84 - Inner Change For the Outer Win! - Podcast with Dr Susan Zhang
The Inner Game of Change
04/19/25 • 55 min
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast that explores the evolving landscape of change management, leadership, and transformation.
In today’s episode, I’m thrilled to be joined by Susan Zhang, a creative technologist, author, and global thought leader. From her beginnings in China to her journey as an international student in Australia, Susan has embraced the discomfort of change to unlock personal and professional growth.
We dive deep into topics like the power of stepping outside your comfort zone, the role of ambition in driving change, and how embracing failure can lead to unexpected growth. Susan shares her unique perspective on leadership, drawing from her experiences at Google and her bold decisions to pivot in her career.
If you're navigating a time of uncertainty or change, this conversation offers powerful insights on how to move forward with confidence, embrace new opportunities, and transform challenges into growth.
I am grateful to have Susan chatting with me today.
Susan's Book
Life Outside My Comfort Zone: Hup draak!
About Susan
024 Awarded Ph.D. at UOW with Examimers' Commendation for Outstanding Thesis
2022 Australian Ambassador's Award for Women in Leadership Judges' commendation
2021 UOW Young Alumni Award
2019 Young Australia China Alumni of the Year Award - Australian Embassy in China
2019 Book release on Amazon: http://bit.ly/susanfirstbook
From an international student to a global tech leader, from a career at Google UK to TikTok in China, from an introvert to a TEDx speaker, Dr Susan Zhang continues to push boundaries and explore outside her comfort zone.
Dr Zhang is recognised as a high-energy business leader and technology serial entrepreneur. She effectively brings a combination of technical prowess and commercial acumen in her leadership positions at Google, later for ByteDance (TikTok), Amazon and Canva where her career has taken her to Australia, China and the United Kingdom. Currently, she is the Head of Creative and EdTech, Digital Trade for the British Government based in Sydney.
Dr Zhang is a published author, a TEDx Speaker and a mentor for young entrepreneurs. Dr Zhang believes her research can play a key part in harnessing the capabilities of AI-driven education influencers at the intersection of e-learning technology and pedagogy Digitalisation.
Contact Susan
Dr Susan’s Profile
Websites
- xiaochenzhang.com (Personal)
- amazon.com.au/Life-Outside-My-Comfort-Zone/dp/1794103422/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=life+outside+my+comfort+zone&qid=1606083586&sr=8-1 (Portfolio)
Ali Juma
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Mental Models For Managing Change - The Ladder Of Inference
The Inner Game of Change
04/23/25 • 7 min
Welcome to a very special mini-series on The Inner Game of Change. I’m thrilled to take you on this journey as we explore something both timeless and practical: Mental Models for Managing Change.
In this episode of Mental Models for Managing Change, we explore a mental model that helps us pause, reflect, and challenge how we make sense of the world around us: The Ladder of Inference.
Developed by organisational psychologist Chris Argyris and later popularised by Peter Senge, this model shows how quickly we move from observing facts to taking action — often based on assumptions, not evidence.
It is especially useful in moments of tension, misalignment, or misunderstanding — and in change work, those moments happen often.
If you have ever walked away from a meeting wondering, “How did we end up on such different pages?”, this episode is for you.
Learn how to recognise the thinking patterns that drive your decisions, how to stay grounded in what is observable, and how to open up better, more constructive conversations — even during complex change.
Listen now to step off the ladder, and into clearer, more intentional leadership.
Ali Juma
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E36 - Coaching for Change - Podcast with Ro Gorell
The Inner Game of Change
11/09/22 • 45 min
Welcome and thank you for checking in at the Inner Game of Change Podcast where I focus on exploring the multi layers of managing organisational change.
Today, my guest is Ro Gorell; and established global High-Performance Coach, Author and a Change Expert.
Having been a business leader & change specialist for over 30 years, Ro has first-hand experience of the challenges leaders face during transforming their organisations.
Being an expert in coaching teams through change, in this episode, Ro and I chat about the complexity of leading change, various strategies to coach teams through change and role of the change managers to contribute to the Organisational behaviour.
I am grateful to have Ro chatting with me today.
Topics include:
- Strategies for effective coaching
- Coaching through change discomfort
- Change Management as a talent capability
- How to grow adaptable teams
- Roles of leader during change
- Culture change vs Behavior change
- Ro's books
- Ro’s advice for change managers as coaches
and much more...
About Ro (In her own words)
Too often, I hear leaders say they wish they knew how to make change simpler. Following the outbreak of COVID-19, the challenges of adapting to a fast-changing world have increased. Remote teams and working from home have added even more complexity into the mix.
Do you lead a team or a group of team leaders?
Today's world is complex and changing rapidly, with 80% of organisations operating almost wholly in teams.
Team literacy is now an essential competence for all team leaders. Today's challenges need collaborative teams.
How do you lead change, balancing the 'soft' and 'hard' aspects, especially with remote teams? How can you do this in a rapidly changing environment?
Here's how:
✶ CO-CREATE THE CHANGE WITH YOUR PEOPLE ✶
✶ COACH TEAMS, SO THEY CAN NAVIGATE CHALLENGES ✶
✶ HELP TEAMS CREATE CLARITY OF PURPOSE ✶
I help business leaders and their teams work together on change outcomes that deliver value for stakeholders.
Having been a business leader & change specialist for over 30 years, I have first-hand experience of the challenges leaders face transforming their organisations.
What is our offer?
► Coaching Teams Through Change
• Helps teams navigate challenges of today's hyper-complex and fast-changing world
• Enables teams to create better processes for decision-making, communication and organising work
• Supports teams to work more effectively with other teams
• Helps teams develop greater clarity of purpose
• Supports teams becoming 'future fit'
► Leading Transformation in the Digital World
• Increase confidence in your ability to leverage tools and models to lead transformational change within your organisation
• Learn concepts and skills you can apply in your daily work with great success
• Gain insights and moments of revelation, as well as discover areas where you can improve as a leader
• Learn strategies for leading change and dealing with 'pushback' or negative attitudes towards change
• Tools and techniques for improving team collaboration and communication
Contact Ro
linkedin.com/in/rogorell
Websites
- growtalentro.com (Company)
- growtalentro.com (Change Coach)
- calendly.com/ro--3/30min (Book Initial Consultation
Ali Juma
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E83 - Inside the AI Shift: Microsoft on Change and Copilot - Podcast With Ian Heard
The Inner Game of Change
04/05/25 • 57 min
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast that explores the evolving landscape of change management, leadership, and transformation.
Today, I am chatting with Ian Heard Director of Public Sector Modern Work at Microsoft ANZ — a leader who is right at the heart of how AI is reshaping the way we work.
In this episode, we talk about the real story behind GenAI Copilot, what change looks like inside Microsoft, and why the role of a change manager might just be turning into a “Chief Excitement Officer.” From navigating resistance (yes, even inside Microsoft) to embracing agentic workflows, this episode offers a grounded look at how leadership and curiosity go hand in hand in today’s fast-moving world.
We also dig into what makes AI adoption truly work — the mindset, the momentum, and the magic that happens when teams stop asking if it works and start exploring how it can help. This one’s real, practical, and full of good humour, forward-looking ideas, and insights for anyone navigating what’s next.
I am grateful to have Ian chatting with me today.
About
As Director for Microsoft's Public Sector Modern Works business in ANZ I lead an all-star team, helping our customers across Government, Health and Education to re-imagine productivity through Cloud and AI solutions such as Microsoft 365 Copilot, Microsoft 365 and Windows 365. This role builds on a career at Microsoft where I have been fortunate to be part of major market transitions in Enterprise Productivity solutions across ANZ and Asia with solutions such as Microsoft Team, Windows 365, Microsoft 365 and the development of Microsoft Security.
As a leader I am passionate about fostering a culture of continuous learning and innovation. I prioritize empowering my team to stay ahead of industry trends, whilst being customer obsessed and centre my approach on challenging them to both exceed their potential and their customer's expectations.
Prior to Microsoft, I cultivated a career with diverse experiences as a leader in multiple geographies and role types in organisations from start-ups and scale-ups through to multi-nationals.
Complementing my corporate career, I have a passion for social impact and seek to be active in the NFP space, as seen as my tenure leading Microsoft's ANZ Give initiative and tenure at Ovarian Cancer Australia as a Board Observer.
I am always eager to connect with like-minded professionals and explore opportunities for collaboration and growth. Let's connect and discuss how we can drive innovation and success together.
Contact
Ali Juma
@The Inner Game of Change podcast
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E81 - The Personalisation Advantage in the Age of AI - Podcast with Mark Abraham
The Inner Game of Change
02/26/25 • 46 min
Welcome to the podcast that explores the evolving landscape of change management, leadership, and transformation.
In today’s episode, I’m thrilled to be joined by Mark Abraham, Managing Director at Boston Consulting Group (BCG) and author of the bestselling HBR book, Personalized: Customer Strategy in the Age of AI. With over 20 years of experience, Mark has worked closely with global CEOs, CMOs, and CXOs, helping them tackle complex business challenges and deliver breakthrough 1:1 customer experiences. At BCG, he founded and leads the company’s Global Personalization business.
Mark brings a wealth of knowledge on how AI is reshaping customer experience, the ethical considerations of data usage, and how businesses can implement personalization at scale. We explore the strategies that drive success, the barriers to adoption, and how AI can be the game changer in the dynamic world of personalization.
I am thrilled to have Mark chatting with me today.
About Mark
I am Managing Director and Senior Partner with Boston Consulting Group and author of the bestselling HBR book, Personalized: Customer Strategy in the Age of AI.
At BCG, I founded and lead the company’s Global Personalization business, helped found our firm's AI arm, BCG GAMMA, comprised of thousands of data scientists and engineers, and lead our work in the restaurant sector. As head of the firm’s Marketing, Sales & Pricing Practice in North America, I work with global CEOs, CMOs and CXOs on complex, multifaceted business challenges. Over the course of my 20+ year tenure at the firm, I have overseen end-to-end transformation programs for iconic clients in a wide range of industries and built BCG into a globally recognized leader in helping brands deliver breakthrough 1:1 customer experiences.
I hold an MBA with high distinction from the University of Michigan Ross School of Business and a BA in business studies from Oxford Brookes University.
Outside of BCG, you might find me off the grid on some of the great hikes of the world in places like Iceland, Patagonia, Australia & New Zealand or my Pacific Northwest home along with my two sons and partner, Jason. I grew up across three continents in Europe, China and US, learned five languages, and love meeting new people across cultures.
Contact Mark
Mark’s Profile
WWW
https://www.personalizedthebook.com/
Ali Juma
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E10 - Orgonomics™ : A different way to “do” change - Podcast with Joan Lurie
The Inner Game of Change
09/04/21 • 50 min
Thank you for checking in at The Inner Game of Change podcast where I focus on exploring the multi layers of managing organisational change.
My guests cover a diverse number of critical topics to enable effective and sustainable change adoption including communication, leadership, training, change impact, process design, change capability and much more.
In this podcast, I am joined by the global developmental psychologist and systemic change leader Joan Lurie to chat about how we can use her proprietary OrgonomicsTM methodology to drive complex change.
About Joan "in her own words"
“I am the CEO of Orgonomix, a company I founded in 2008 to assist leaders and organisations to transform themselves and to function at their growing edge. My work integrates strategy, systems thinking, complexity, social construction and adult development theory.
I work with boards, executives and leadership teams to help them rewire their thinking to be more systemic, and to design and lead complex adaptive and second-order change in their organisations. With over 20 years of practice and experience, I have taken up both internal corporate as well as consulting roles, helping companies achieve turnaround results - emerging new cultures, operating models and different organisational systems, whilst simultaneously building their adaptive capacity.
Through this practice and experimentation, I have developed OrgonomicsTM - a proprietary methodology which provides a ‘map’ for leaders to navigate the emerging complexity we face in the new economic landscape.
Referred to as ground-breaking, OrgonomicsTM enables leaders to fundamentally transform their ways of seeing and knowing; reframe their assumptions and mental maps and repattern their organisational systems for new ways of relating and operating, to achieve higher order functioning and performance.
As a developmental psychologist and systemic change leader my core purpose is to ensure that leaders and organisations are able to continuously develop, adapt and grow to be fit for and thrive in our complex, ambiguous, uncertain and volatile context. Functioning at our growing edge and developing our adaptive muscle used to be a ‘nice to have', but it has now become our individual and organisational imperative; we have to accelerate it for the good of our whole ecology.
Contact
LinkedIn
Joan Lurie
Website
www.orgonomix.com.au
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E19 - HBR Project Management Handbook - Podcast with Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez
The Inner Game of Change
01/10/22 • 44 min
Welcome and thank you for checking in at the Inner Game of Change Podcast where I focus on exploring the multi layers of managing organisational change.
My guests cover a diverse number of critical topics to enable effective and sustainable change in the workplace.
My guest today is Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez : Antonio is a global champion of project management and author of the "Harvard Business Review Project Management Handbook" which was released late 2021.
As well as discussing his book, Anotnio argues that we are living in a project economy and Projects are the lingua franca of the business and personal worlds from the C-suite to managing your careers.
I am grateful to have Antonio sharing his thoughts on re-imagining project management.
Topics include :
- Project Managers need to do 80% of their current practices differently.
- How to prepare people for the current project economy
- Project Portfolio management
- Projects are permanent and operations are temporary
- From COO to Chief Projects / Transformation Officer
- The gig economy within an organisation
- Output trumps input
- The battle amongst PM, Agile PM, CM, etc.
- The pandemic taught us to be good at prioritisation
and much more.
About Antonio (in his own words)
Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez is the global champion of project management and author of the "Harvard Business Review Project Management Handbook" (HBR 2021) and HBR magazine's featured article "The Project Economy Has Arrived" (Nov 2021), which argues that Projects are the lingua franca of the business and personal worlds from the C-suite to managing your careers.
Antonio’s research and global impact in modern management has been recognized by Thinkers50 with the prestigious award “Ideas into Practice” and is ranked #17 in the global gurus Top 30 list. He is part of Marshall Goldsmith 100 coaches.
He was the global Chairman of the Project Management Institute in 2016 and has been recognized as a Fellow of PMI for his contribution to the project management profession. He led the creation of the Brightline Initiative, founded of Projects & Co, and co-founded the Strategy Implementation Institute. Antonio is also the author of “Lead Successful Projects” (Penguin, 2019), “The Project Revolution” (LID, 2019). and “The Focused Organization” (Taylor&Francis, 2014), and has contributed to seven other books. A pioneer and leading authority in teaching and coaching senior executives the art and science of strategy execution and project management. Currently visiting professor at Duke CE, Instituto de Empresa, Solvay, Vlerick, Ecole des Ponts, and Skolkovo.
He is the Director of the Program Management Office at GlaxoSmithKline Vaccines. Previously he worked as Head of Project Portfolio Management at BNP Paribas Fortis. Prior he was Head of Post-Merger Integration at Fortis Bank, leading the acquisition of ABN AMBRO, the largest in financial service history. He also worked for ten years at PricewaterhouseCoopers, becoming the global lead practitioner for project and change management.
Contact Details
linkedin.com/in/antonionietorodriguez
Websites
- linkedin.com/groups?gid=2548095&trk=hb_side_g (Blog)
- antonionietorodriguez.com (Personal Website)
Ali Juma
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E23 - Change - Podcast with Gaurav Gupta
The Inner Game of Change
03/09/22 • 41 min
Hi everyone,
Welcome and thank you for checking in at The Inner Game of Change Podcast where I focus on exploring the multi layers of managing organisational change.
My guests cover a diverse number of critical topics to enable effective and sustainable change in the workplace.
Today, my guest is Gaurav Gupta; an international author, speaker and a change strategist. In this podcast, Gaurav and I discuss some key topics from the recent book Change where Gaurav has coauthored writing with John Kotter.
At Kotter International, Gaurav combines his global experience of a career in strategy execution, with current research on the emerging science of change, to help companies mobilize their people in pursuit of transformational change.
I am grateful to have Gaurav sharing his thoughts with me today.
Topics Discussed:
- Definition of uncertainty
- World Uncertainty Index
- How to Activate the Thrive Channel
- Kotter's 4 Pillars of effective organisational change
- Kotter's dual operating system
- From disruption to adoption
- why do we adopt some changes ?
- Change management is more of a capability than a stand alone workstream.
And much more.
About Gaurav
Gaurav is a strategy and change execution professional who combines data-driven, analytical approaches with deep expertise in change leadership to advise businesses across industries on successful implementation of their most important strategic and operational initiatives. He is passionate about continued learning with an intense curiosity to explore and deconstruct complexity and uncertainty
Gaurav is the co-founder of Ka Partners and an affiliate at Kotter International. At Ka Partners, he helps fast-growing companies successfully navigate growth and change. Through the “adaptive organization” framework, Ka Partners enables companies to be agile and robust, encourage creativity and consistency, operate with autonomy and alignment, and move with speed and purpose.
At Kotter, he combines his global experience of a career in strategy execution, with current research on the emerging science of change, to help companies mobilize their people in pursuit of transformational change.
Contact
linkedin.com/in/gauravguptadc
kotterinternational.com (Company Website)
kapartners.co (Company Website)
medictomedic.us (Company Website)
Ali Juma
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E77 - Highlights From 2024
The Inner Game of Change
12/26/24 • 116 min
In this special highlights episode of The Inner Game of Change podcast, we revisit some of the most impactful moments from our top episodes. While every conversation this year has been rich with invaluable insights, these highlights showcase standout lessons and perspectives that have resonated deeply with our audience. Join me as we explore key themes in leadership, change, and transformation.
I am grateful for all of my guests' time, insight and wisdom.
As we wrap up 2024, I want to thank you for being part of The Inner Game of Change. Your support and engagement have made every episode truly meaningful. Wishing you and your loved ones a happy, safe, and restful holiday season. I can’t wait to kick off 2025 with another amazing lineup of guests, creative conversations, and transformative ideas. Until next year, stay well, stay curious, and approach every change with courage and curiosity!
Episodes in this summary include :
E76 - Rethinking Change: From Behavioural Conditioning to Regenerative Transformation - Podcast with Carol Sanford
E75 - Change Journey : Performer to Master - Podcast with Dr Jess Tayel
E73 - Change Leadership In Higher Education - Podcast with Vice Chancellor Professor Theo Farrell
E71 - Winning Against Resistance To Change - Podcast with Dr. David Weiss
E67 - What's Organizational Change Management? - Podcast with Paula Anastasiade
E65 - The Change Management Flywheel - Podcast with Terri Block & Susan Bartlett
E64 - AI Change by Design for Impact - Podcast with Sarah Kaur
E62 - Becoming a Change Maker - Podcast with Alex Budak
E60 - How AI will Revolutionise Change Management - Podcast with Jason Little
Ali Juma
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FAQ
How many episodes does The Inner Game of Change have?
The Inner Game of Change currently has 92 episodes available.
What topics does The Inner Game of Change cover?
The podcast is about Adoption, Training, Change, Game, Management, Design, Podcasts, Business, Change Management, Project and Communication.
What is the most popular episode on The Inner Game of Change?
The episode title 'E67 - What's Organizational Change Management? - Podcast with Paula Anastasiade' is the most popular.
What is the average episode length on The Inner Game of Change?
The average episode length on The Inner Game of Change is 40 minutes.
How often are episodes of The Inner Game of Change released?
Episodes of The Inner Game of Change are typically released every 14 days.
When was the first episode of The Inner Game of Change?
The first episode of The Inner Game of Change was released on Apr 7, 2021.
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