Jonathan Rauch: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy

02/03/25 • 90 min

Talkin‘ Politics & Religion Without Killin‘ Each Other

In this episode, we welcome back Jonathan Rauch, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing writer at The Atlantic. Jon joined us to discuss his new book, Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy.

We dive deep into the intersection of faith, democracy, and civic engagement (that's our jam!), exploring how American Christianity has shifted in recent years and what that means for the future of our democracy. We also discuss the aftermath of the 2024 election, the rise of political tribalism, and the role of faith in shaping a more just and stable society.

What We Discuss

How Jonathan Rauch’s perspective on faith and democracy evolved over time (including what Jon refers to as the dumbest thing he ever wrote).
Why he believes Christianity has played a crucial role in supporting democracy—and where it has gone wrong.
The key differences between “thin Christianity” and “thick Christianity.”
How the LDS Church offers a model for civic engagement based on negotiation and peacemaking.
Why the loss of institutional trust is fueling political and social instability.
The role of Braver Angels and other organizations in bridging political divides.

Episode Highlights

⏳ [00:02:00] – Jonathan Rauch discusses his background, his past books, and his upcoming release, Cross Purposes.
⏳ [00:07:00] – Reflecting on the 2024 election and why it was surprisingly “ordinary” despite extreme circumstances.
⏳ [00:13:00] – How Trump’s second administration is reshaping democracy and institutions.
⏳ [00:22:00] – Rauch’s personal journey: From skepticism about religion to recognizing its role in democracy.
⏳ [00:35:00] – The rise of “thin Christianity” and how churches are struggling with political identity.
⏳ [00:44:00] – How the LDS Church provides an example of “thick Christianity” and civic engagement.
⏳ [00:57:00] – Rauch’s concerns about post-liberalism and authoritarian tendencies in American politics.
⏳ [01:10:00] – The importance of doubt, curiosity, and engaging across differences.
⏳ [01:17:00] – Final thoughts: How to be better citizens and people of faith in a pluralistic society.

Featured Quotes

💬 “I believed, with some justification, that Christianity was bigoted and cruel and hypocritical to minorities like me. And I was wrong.” – Jonathan Rauch

💬 “Liberalism, properly understood, means that all human beings are created free and equal. And if we lose that, we lose everything.” – Jonathan Rauch

💬 “The LDS Church is one of the few religious institutions that has thought through a theology of civic engagement. And that’s something all Christians can learn from.” – Jonathan Rauch

💬 “Jesus’ message is radical and countercultural. The question is: Are we actually following it?” – Corey Nathan

Resources Mentioned

📖 Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy by Jonathan Rauch
📖 The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth by Jonathan Rauch
🌎 Braver Angels – Bridging the Political Divide

Call to Action

If you enjoyed this conversation, please:
✅ Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform
✅ Leave a review to help spread the word (https://ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics)
✅ Subscribe on YouTube for video content and short clips (https://www.youtube.com/@politicsandreligion)

@coreysnathan:

Jonathan Rauch

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What We Discuss

How Jonathan Rauch’s perspective on faith and democracy evolved over time (including what Jon refers to as the dumbest thing he ever wrote).
Why he believes Christianity has played a crucial role in supporting democracy—and where it has gone wrong.
The key differences between “thin Christianity” and “thick Christianity.”
How the LDS Church offers a model for civic engagement based on negotiation and peacemaking.
Why the loss of institutional trust is fueling political and social instability.
The role of Braver Angels and other organizations in bridging political divides.

Episode Highlights

Featured Quotes

💬 “I believed, with some justification, that Christianity was bigoted and cruel and hypocritical to minorities like me. And I was wrong.” – Jonathan Rauch

💬 “Liberalism, properly understood, means that all human beings are created free and equal. And if we lose that, we lose everything.” – Jonathan Rauch

💬 “The LDS Church is one of the few religious institutions that has thought through a theology of civic engagement. And that’s something all Christians can learn from.” – Jonathan Rauch

💬 “Jesus’ message is radical and countercultural. The question is: Are we actually following it?” – Corey Nathan

Resources Mentioned

Call to Action

@coreysnathan:

Jonathan Rauch

Our Sponsors

Meza Wealth Management: www.mezawealth.com
Prolux Autogroup: www.proluxautogroup.com or www.granadahillsairpor...

Previous Episode

7 Tools for Engaging With "Them"

Is it possible to have decent conversations across political differences. Short answer: Yeah!

In this episode, host Corey Nathan explores how we can have meaningful, respectful, and productive conversations with those who think differently from us—politically, religiously, and ideologically. After four years of hosting the show and speaking with a wide array of guests, Corey shares his own insights, offering seven practical tools (plus a bonus tip) for engaging with “one of them” in a way that fosters connection rather than division.

What Is Discussed

How to give yourself and others grace in difficult conversations
The importance of setting proper expectations when discussing sensitive topics
Why asking the right questions is more powerful than having the perfect comeback
How storytelling can humanize those with whom we disagree
The value of being open to the phrase "I never thought of it that way"
How to recognize when it’s time to step away from a conversation or to love someone "from a safe distance"
Resources and organizations that can help you navigate difficult discussions

Episode Highlights

⏳ [00:02:00] – Reviews from listeners: the good, the bad, and the constructive
⏳ [00:05:00] – The purpose of this episode: sharing tools for engaging with "one of them"
⏳ [00:06:00] – Tool #1: Grace – Accepting that we will all make mistakes in these conversations
⏳ [00:09:00] – Tool #2: Proper Expectations – Why we shouldn't expect to change someone's mind 180 degrees
⏳ [00:12:00] – Tool #3: Asking Questions – Learning from Jesus' approach of responding with questions
⏳ [00:20:00] – Tool #4: Storytelling – The power of narrative in understanding each other as human beings
⏳ [00:25:00] – Tool #5: Being Open to "I Never Thought of It That Way" Moments
⏳ [00:32:00] – Tool #6: Recognizing Your Line – Knowing when to step away from an unhealthy dynamic
⏳ [00:35:00] – Tool #7: Equipping Yourself – Books, organizations, and resources for learning how to engage better
⏳ [00:38:00] – Bonus Tip: Taking Care of Yourself – Mental, emotional, and physical well-being in this work

Featured Quotes

📢 “Give yourself grace. You’re not going to get it right every time.”
📢 “If we ask the right question, it allows that person, instead of being in a posture of combat, to tell their story.”
📢 “Trying to inform, like trying to win, can get in the way of trying to listen.” – Monica Guzmán (as quoted in the episode)
📢 “People are mysteries, not puzzles.” – Monica Guzmán

Resources Mentioned

📖 Books:

I Never Thought of It That Way – by Mónica Guzmán
How to Know a Person – by David Brooks

🌍 Organizations:

The Village Square – Encouraging healthy civic discourse
Braver Angels – Bridging political divides through dialogue

🎥 Watch & Support the Podcast:

YouTube Channel – Subscribe for video content
Patreon – Support the show

Call to Action

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider:
✅ Subscribing to the podcast on your favorite platform
✅ Leaving a review to help spread the word (https://ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics)
✅ Sharing this episode with friends and family who want to have better conversations

Connect With Us on Social Media

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🔹 Now go talk some politics and religion—but with gentleness and respect. 💡

Next Episode

The Homeless Conservative: Blake Fischer

In this episode, host Corey Nathan sits down with Blake Fischer, the creator and host of The Homeless Conservative podcast. Blake describes himself as a constitutional conservative who feels politically "homeless" in today’s climate. They dive deep into politics, faith, and media, all while challenging ideological silos in an engaging and candid conversation.

Blake shares his unique political journey, from growing up in Oklahoma and getting involved in politics at an early age to becoming a musician touring the country in a punk-rock band. His experiences shape his political perspective, emphasizing constitutional principles, independent thinking, and holding both sides accountable.

📌 What We Discuss:

✔️ Blake’s political awakening and how his family's involvement in local politics shaped his views.
✔️ What it means to be a constitutional conservative in today’s political landscape.
✔️ How his Christian faith informs his political views—and why he's critical of the evangelical right’s embrace of Trump.
✔️ His take on Trump 2.0—what worries him and what he’s optimistic about.
✔️ The role of media in shaping public perception and the dangers of political silos.
✔️ How to have meaningful political discussions without losing friends (or your mind!).

⏳ Episode Highlights & Key Moments:

⏱️ [01:30] – Meet Blake Fischer, host of The Homeless Conservative podcast.
⏱️ [03:00] – Blake’s early exposure to politics—from family involvement to local campaigns.
⏱️ [06:30] – The evolution of political media, from cable news to opinion journalism.
⏱️ [10:00] – What does it mean to be a constitutional conservative? Why Blake believes in limiting government power.
⏱️ [19:00] – Blake’s background as a musician, touring in a punk rock band.
⏱️ [25:00] – His Christian faith and how it intersects with his politics.
⏱️ [33:00] – Processing the 2024 election cycle, from Biden’s debate performance to Trump’s nomination of J.D. Vance.
⏱️ [41:00] – What concerns Blake the most about Trump’s second term?
⏱️ [50:00] – The role of big tech and Elon Musk in Trump’s presidency.
⏱️ [57:00] – How can we have better conversations across political and religious differences?

💬 Featured Quotes:

🗣️ Blake Fischer on the Constitution: "The Constitution is brilliant—not because it grants us rights, but because it recognizes that our rights exist beyond government authority."

🗣️ On the evangelical embrace of Trump: "It’s not that Trump can’t be president; it’s that we should stop pretending he’s something he’s not."

🗣️ On political discourse: "The biggest mistake people make in political conversations is assuming bad intent. Most people believe they’re advocating for something good."

📚 Resources & Mentions:

🔗 The Homeless Conservative Podcast – Blake Fischer’s podcast
🔗 Jonah Goldberg – Conservative columnist and author
🔗 Thomas Sowell – Economist and political thinker

Call to Action

@coreysnathan:

Blake Fischer

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about politics, faith, and the future of American democracy. Tune in and join the conversation! 🎧🇺🇸