Measles, Pharma and Mistrust: A Conversation with MAHA Moms and Dr. Paul Offit

02/20/25 • 60 min

This week, in his first speech addressing the Department of Health and Human Services as its new chief, RFK Jr. said the path to the country earning back trust was through transparency.

As Kennedy was saying these words to a packed audience, Texas was clocking in more measles cases, in what is turning out to be its worst measles outbreak in 30 years. With rising mistrust in public health and declining vaccination rates, measles - a disease we eradicated over 20 years ago is making a comeback, worrying many in public health.

But two MAHA moms in their fifties we heard from on today's episode ask a question we are increasingly hearing more often these days: what's the big deal about measles? Both these moms got it as children and recovered, missed a few days of school and then had lifelong immunity. Is public health over reacting? They point to a classic Brady Bunch episode where the kids all catch measles, reflecting how the virus was once considered a rite of passage, a harmless childhood illness. If anything, doesn't getting a disease strengthen the immune system?

Before the vaccine, measles claimed the lives of 500 children every year and hospitalized tens of thousands more, and sometimes led to severe complications in kids many years after they got sick.

But now that we have a vaccine, what’s the real risk of measles today? And why is the measles vaccine -- while still popular among the vast majority of this country -- losing the trust of a small but growing group of Americans? In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Paul Offit, a leading expert on childhood vaccines, to explore the questions surrounding measles and dig into the facts about pharmaceutical funding while aiming to model a more constructive conversation.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guests:

Yesenia Muhammad, Atlanta, MAHA Mom

Melinda Hicks, Atlanta, MAHA Mom

Dr. Paul Offit, pediatrician, infectious disease and vaccine specialist

Sources:

States looking to create exemptions for public school vaccine mandates:

https://apnews.com/article/vaccines-whooping-cough-rfk-measles-exemptions-covid-27dae6f61505ef1953ca869a78c71942

Public Attitudes on the MMR vaccine:

https://www.kff.org/health-information-and-trust/press-release/poll-trust-in-public-health-agencies-and-vaccines-falls-amid-republican-skepticism/#:~:text=Among%20parents%2C%20about%20seven%20in,the%20benefits%20

CDC numbers on risk from Measles
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/signs-symptoms/?CDC_AAref_Val=https://www.cdc.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html#

Measles compromises immune memory

Measles virus infection diminishes preexisting antibodies that offer protection from other pathogens

Clinical Trial data on MMR:

[Simultaneous administration at different dosages of attenuated live virus vaccines against measles, mumps and rubella].

Clinical evaluation of a new measles-mumps-rubella trivalent vac

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This week, in his first speech addressing the Department of Health and Human Services as its new chief, RFK Jr. said the path to the country earning back trust was through transparency.

Before the vaccine, measles claimed the lives of 500 children every year and hospitalized tens of thousands more, and sometimes led to severe complications in kids many years after they got sick.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guests:

Yesenia Muhammad, Atlanta, MAHA Mom

Melinda Hicks, Atlanta, MAHA Mom

Dr. Paul Offit, pediatrician, infectious disease and vaccine specialist

Sources:

States looking to create exemptions for public school vaccine mandates:

https://apnews.com/article/vaccines-whooping-cough-rfk-measles-exemptions-covid-27dae6f61505ef1953ca869a78c71942

Public Attitudes on the MMR vaccine:

CDC numbers on risk from Measles
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/signs-symptoms/?CDC_AAref_Val=https://www.cdc.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html#

Measles compromises immune memory

Measles virus infection diminishes preexisting antibodies that offer protection from other pathogens

Clinical Trial data on MMR:

[Simultaneous administration at different dosages of attenuated live virus vaccines against measles, mumps and rubella].

Clinical evaluation of a new measles-mumps-rubella trivalent vac

Thanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
Got questions? Comments? We'd love to hear from you! Email us at [email protected]

Previous Episode

Is it True You Can't Sue a Vaccine Manufacturer? We Ask a Vaccine Legal Scholar

A major source of mistrust in public health today is the belief that you can't sue a vaccine manufacturer if you suffer an adverse reaction. Many ask: Why should I trust vaccines if I can't hold vaccine makers accountable? For them, it sounds un-American, heavily biased toward Big Pharma, and proof that the system is rigged. It is something that the incoming health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has spoken about often.

But is it true?

In this episode, we sit down with Dorit Reiss, a legal scholar specializing in vaccines and the law, to separate fact from fiction. We dive into why vaccine makers were ever granted any shield from liability to begin with. And we look at where America ultimately landed on this issue, by unpacking the facts and tracing the history. What we found surprised us.

We asked: what recourse do people have if they experience a rare side effect and want accountability from a vaccine maker? What avenues exist today and do they work? Is our understandable desire to have available vaccines -- which have saved hundreds of millions of lives -- allowing room for a fair process to hold vaccine makers accountable for adverse reactions?

Plus, as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. now becomes the new leader of the Department of Health and Human Services, what potential changes could he bring to the vaccine landscape?

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Dorit Reiss, Professor of Law, University of California Law San Francisco; vaccine law specialist

Sources:

GAO report 2024 on how Covid vaccine compensation program is fairing

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-107368

New York Times from November 1986 on Reagan

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/15/us/reagan-signs-bill-on-drug-exports-and-payment-for-vaccine-injuries.html

Paul Offit on vaccine compensation history

https://pauloffit.substack.com/p/a-dangerous-time-for-americas-children-3bb

Washington Post 1987

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/03/06/administration-attacks-vaccine-law/a12c8353-e075-443c-b026-9a6ea00ff61b/

Time Magazine 2015
https://time.com/3995062/vaccine-injury-court-truth/

Newsweek 2023
https://www.newsweek.com/surge-vaccine-lawsuits-forces-biden-admin-hire-more-attorneys-1843385

Thanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
Got questions? Comments? We'd love to hear from you! Email us at [email protected]

Next Episode

MAGA + MAHA: How Will This Work Exactly? We Speak With Journalist Batya Ungar-Sargon

With measles cases spreading and reports of the first measles death in 10 years, all eyes are on the new health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr, in what is his first real public health test. He said the measles outbreaks were not unusual. According to the CDC and Your Local Epidemiologist newsletter, 2025 has already passed 8 out of the last 15 years in annual counts of measles.

On today's episode: In 2024, after Kennedy rose to join Donald Trump, what we got was a powerful union, between MAGA and MAHA. When Kennedy dropped his independent bid for the White House and endorsed Donald J. Trump, his MAHA supporters rallied behind the Republican candidate.

This merger unites two groups that, at first glance, seem to have little in common. One is a populist movement, championing the working American who feels overlooked and dismissed by the elites. The other is a coalition of wellness enthusiasts and vaccine skeptics, critics of big business, and those wary of pharma’s influence over health policy and advocates of health freedom, coming together in common cause.

But what happens when the realpolitik of governing kicks in, with its focus on priorities, compromises, and funding? Will MAGA rally behind MAHA’s causes, especially if they call for more business regulations, farming restrictions, and higher health standards? Is MAHA wise to trust MAGA? Journalist Batya Ungar-Sargon, author, journalist, and vocal Trump supporter, joins the discussion, with a take on all of this that you won't want to miss.

Hosts:

Brinda Adhikari

Tom Johnson

Maggie Bartlett

Dr. Mark Abdelmalek

Guest:

Batya Ungar-Sargon, columnist The Free Press, author Second Class: How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women

Sources:

RFK and Donald Trump’s alliance

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/09/rfk-trump-health-maga/680011/

The anti-vaccine movement

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9981160/

MAHA’s agenda

https://thehill.com/newsletters/health-care/5144511-rfk-kennedy-maha-era-begins/

What is MAHA?

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/what-is-maha-health-wellness-movement-rfk-jr-policies.html

MAHA’s legislative goals

https://www.axios.com/2024/11/14/maha-movement-federal-health-agencies

Recent history of the vaccine skeptical movement

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/the-anti-vax-movement-hustl/

The MAHA Commission

https://www.axios.com/2025/02/13/trump-maha-commission-rfk-chronic-illness

Republicans and Democrats Views on Vaccines

https://news.gallup.com/poll/648308/far-fewer-regard-childhood-vaccinations-important.aspx

Thanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
Got questions? Comments? We'd love to hear from you! Email us at [email protected]