Michael Mezzatesta: Why Isn't the Economy Working? An Economist's Case for Post-Growth | #23

09/03/24 • 126 min

Welcome to the Urgent Futures podcast, the show that finds signal in the noise. Each week, I sit down with leading thinkers whose research, concepts, and questions clarify the chaos, from culture to the cosmos.

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My guest this week is Michael Mezzatesta.

To say the economy is complex is an understatement. It’s among the most complex systems humanity has ever concocted, full of high-level math and specialized theory that makes it impenetrable to outsiders. Factor in the layers of financial apparatus and we’re talking about something that the average person is right to assume is totally beyond their grasp.

And yet, it’s absolutely vital that the public understands the basics of what’s going on and how we can participate in making change. This is what makes economics communicators so essential, and why I’m thrilled to share this conversation with Michael Mezzatesta. Over the past few years, he’s used his background as an economist to make economics and finance topics accessible to the public, and not just any economics topics, but specifically those related to growth and climate change. Over 99% of scientists agree that climate change is human-caused—and that the next few years will be critical in mitigating the effects of global heating caused by greenhouse gas emissions.

To take meaningful action, humanity will necessarily need to try a range of actions, and one critical lever is the economy. How might democratic societies induce systems change toward deemphasizing growth and prioritizing justice and wellbeing?

Yes, the scale of the problem is immense, but there are ideas, theories, and tactics that many of us have never considered or grasped in any depth. I believe that encountering these ideas, and being shown that we can understand them, is a critical first step toward generating action. This is why I view Michael’s work as so important: it builds baseline awareness and understanding, and invites solidarity and the belief that change is not only possible, but maybe even a lot closer to realizing than we’d ever imagine.

BIOMichael Mezzatesta is an economist and educator using social media to spread ideas for a better future. His videos analyze sustainability through the lenses of economics, finance, and culture. By highlighting intersectional issues and pushing for systemic solutions, Michael encourages people to think differently about climate change – and to imagine better futures. Previously, Michael got an economics degree from Stanford and spent a few years working as a consultant at McKinsey & Company before jumping into growth & marketing work at climate/technology startups in Los Angeles. He’s currently involved in a few organizations – including Earth4All, the Wellbeing Economy Alliance, and the Post Growth Institute – that advocate for economic justice and systems change.

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Guests on Urgent Futures are experts across art, science, media, technology, AI, philosophy, economics, mathematics, anthropology, journalism, and more. We live in complex times; these are the voices who will help you orient to emerging futures.

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Find video episodes of Urgent Futures at: youtube.com/@UrgentFutures. Past conversations include

My guest this week is Michael Mezzatesta.

If you’re loving the Urgent Futures podcast...

Please subscribe + leave a review on your preferred podcast platform! Or recommend it to a friend who might like it. All of it help the podcast grow.

Find video episodes of Urgent Futures at: youtube.com/@UrgentFutures. Past conversations include

Previous Episode

Noelle Perdue: What Everyone Gets Wrong About Pornography—According to a Porn Historian | Urgent Futures #22

My guest this week is porn historian Noelle Perdue.

Porn. I’ve noticed it referenced in the news and on social media a lot more lately because many are concerned that it’s having harmful addictive effects on us—especially on adolescents and young men. While I do think it’s important to take these concerns seriously, I think sometimes these arguments are not being made in good faith, and when they are, they’re directed at symptoms, not underlying causes.

What I’m getting at is this. What if porn is not the problem, but Western society’s post-Puritanical relationship to it? (or not so post puritanical) And what are the byproducts of a culture that not only demonizes pornography, but implicitly advocates for repressing desire, and wraps up these fears into obscenity law that harms queer, trans, nonbinary folks, and pretty much anyone else who doesn’t fit neatly within the bounds of heternormativity?

Spoiler alert: it’s not good!

This is why it felt so important to invite Noelle onto Urgent Futures. She is someone who approaches this subject with a high degree of rigor, but also an artist’s touch, translating complex ideas in accessible and sometimes even comedic ways. In the episode you’ll hear how I discovered her work through an experimental AI art project she posted about on TikTok in 2021. I even see this approach at work in her more recent project, Candy Lore, a venue for serious reviews of candy. Even though it’s not about porn at all, it gives a sense of how she’s able to take a subject that’s often dismissed as frivolous, despite being a major part of our culture, and treat it with care without losing its essential play and silliness.

Porn, sex, eroticism, and intimacy are incredibly complex, interrelated systems. Trying to address them with oversimplified mechanistic approaches represents a misunderstanding of their complexity. We need to be able to talk about these subjects openly, and create a culture and political backdrop in which it doesn’t imperil folks to talk about it honestly. It seems obvious to me that working in that direction would do more to curb the harmful effects currently being attributed to porn and the porn industry than attacking it. But if you’re unconvinced, I have one of the world’s leading experts on the subject to explain it better than I ever could.

BIO:Noelle Perdue is a writer, producer, and Internet porn historian with nearly ten years of experience working platform-side for multiple mainstream and independent adult companies. Having written everything from Food Network porn parodies to legally binding terms and conditions, much of her current work explores obscenity law and how pornography’s history can influence our digital and political futures. Noelle’s writing work has been published on Wired, Washington Post, Pornhub, Slate, Brazzers, Input, etc, she’s also been featured as an industry expert on multiple programs including the BBC, CBC, The Guardian, Rolling Stone, and on Netflix's 2023 documentary Money Shot.

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Next Episode

Nina Jankowicz: Why Disinformation Is Still a Critical Issue for Democracy | Urgent Futures #24

My guest this week is Nina Jankowicz.

Nina Jankowicz, the co-founder and CEO of The American Sunlight Project, is an internationally-recognized expert on disinformation and democratization, one of TIME magazine’s 100 Most Influential People in AI, and the author of two books: How to Lose the Information War (2020), which The New Yorker called “a persuasive new book on disinformation as a geopolitical strategy,” and How to Be A Woman Online (2022), an examination of online abuse and disinformation and tips for fighting back, which Publishers Weekly named “essential.” Jankowicz has advised governments, international organizations, and tech companies, and testified before the US Congress, UK Parliament, and European Parliament.

In 2022, Jankowicz was appointed to lead the Disinformation Governance Board, an intra-agency best practices and coordination entity at the Department of Homeland Security; she resigned the position after a sustained disinformation campaign caused the Biden Administration to abandon the project. From 2017-2022, Jankowicz has held fellowships at the Wilson Center, where she led accessible, actionable research about the effects of disinformation on women and freedom of expression around the world. She advised the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry on strategic communications under the auspices of a Fulbright-Clinton Public Policy Fellowship in 2016-17. Early in her career, she managed democracy assistance programs to Russia and Belarus at the National Democratic Institute.

Nina has lived a fascinating life, which is not to say that it’s always been easy. In many ways she has lived out the very things that she’s spent her career researching and working to address.

I first encountered Nina’s work in How to Lose the Information War, which really clarified my understanding of how Russian influence operations work. This was in 2020, when concern about disinformation and its impacts had reached all-time highs, especially with regard to the rise of conspiracy theories like QAnon, antivax communities, and more. How to Lose the Information War was a book that helped me see how these seemingly convoluted outcomes were grounded in basic, repeatable strategies (not just by Russians per se, but by anyone seeking to manipulate the information sphere at scale).

In recognition of her work and scholarship, Nina was tapped to lead the Disinformation Governance Board at the Department of Homeland Security in 2022. But her tenure was short-lived—in no small part because of the very influence operations and toxified media environment that she had been working to illuminate and address. We talk about this more in-depth in the episode.

Already in 2022 talk of disinformation and misinformation didn’t have the fangs that it had during the Trump years. In some ways that speaks to half of the American populace feeling like they could ramp down from the state of hypervigilance they’d maintained during the preceding years. But just because it wasn’t as hot of a topic of conversation anymore didn’t mean that bad actors weren’t still endeavoring to interfere with the information environment. If anything, the lack of a magnifying glass probably made for ideal conditions to build out new operations and social communities.

Which is why Nina’s latest effort, The American Sunlight Project feels like such an important organization at this moment. Yes, there are complicated questions about what means we use to determine if something is true, but at bare minimum we need an information space predicated on good-faith attempts to reach consensus, even if through debate. To do that, we need to understand the media environm...