128: Mark Ma - RTOs: Research-backed Realities and Recommendations
10/18/24 • 44 min
Mark Ma, a research professor at the University of Pittsburgh, studies social and economic issues including Return To Office (RTO) mandates, AI, and tax evasion. A working parent during the pandemic, Mark describes how personal and community experiences initially generated his interest in researching remote work options and hybrid policies. He shares his discoveries that stock market declines generated RTO mandates but not improved corporate results. Mark discusses the dynamics of executives’ control, power, and distrust affecting work policies. He advocates for workplace flexibility—giving employees and teams choices.
TAKEAWAYS
[02:23] While Mark’s parents advised him to study accounting, he found it fascinating.
[03:01] For his PhD, Mark explores financial analysis, and his tax avoidance research is cited.
[03:45] Passionate about research, Mark pursues academia, also appreciating the flexible lifestyle.
[05:09] Parental challenges during the pandemic fuels Mark’s interest in remote work options.
[05:50] Noticing neighbors’ complaints about returning to the office, Mark attends a conference and hears about working from home research.
[06:41] Mark gets tenure and explores risky research projects that help improve people’s lives.
[08:25] In late 2022, Mark starts collecting data on companies’ return-to-office mandates.
[09:25] Leaders say remote workers aren’t working hard, while employees keep performing.
[11:06] Return-To-Office mandates often happen after a stock price crash—but why?
[12:00] How remote work gets blamed—without evidence—for poor performance.
[14:36] RTO mandates also result from executives’ loss of control and not trusting employees.
[15:40] Companies may also use RTO policies to easily/cheaply lay off employees.
[18:16] Male and powerful CEOs—with higher relative salaries—issue more RTO mandates to assert control.
[21:38] Employee and team choice is recommended combined with intentional office time.
[22:32] Mark needs data from companies offering employee choice to confirm the best approach.
[24:58] Amazon’s shifts to 3-days/wk then 5-days/week RTO has caused employee dissatisfaction and departures.
[25:50] One example of Nvidia’s flexible policy enables it to benefit from Amazon’s rigid one.
[26:59] Mark finds no evidence that RTO mandates help firms’ performance or stock price.
[27:43] Should productivity be measured appropriately and over what time period?
[29:12] States level data shows structured hybrid work reduces depression and suicide risks.
[32:00] Fully remote workers often self-select which fits their lifestyle and social setup.
[32:50] Companies going fully remote need regular off-site engagements to mitigate isolation.
[34:18] New research explores RTO mandates’ affect turnover, especially in finance and tech.
[35:20] Initial findings show higher turnover, especially among women, follows RTO mandates.
[36:48] After RTOs announcements, turnover increases quickly as some people can’t go back to the office.
[39:06] IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: “First, allow flexibility so employees have choice. Second, promote flexible team leaders to signal that people working from home will not be penalized. Third, for new graduate hires who want to work at the office, ensure mentors are present to support them.
RESOURCES
Is Workplace Flexibility Good for the Environment?
Research on Return To Office Mandates
Mental Health Benefits of Workplace Flexibility
QUOTES
“The more powerful CEOs and the male CEOs are more likely to impose return-to-office mandates.”
“You should allow team choice plus employee choice. That means teams decide when they want to come to office together. And on those in office days, those meetings should be intentional.”
“We clearly do not find any evidence that Return To Office mandates help firms’ performance or stock price.”
“Five-day in-office work is not necessarily good for your mental health.”
“A lot of top executives, when they do not see the employees in the office, they do not trust the employees. They feel they have lost control of the employees.”
"Firms are telling their employees, you can work from home, but you will not be promoted. That's not a good strategy because your good employees will leave."
"By promoting flexible team leaders, you will send a signal to those people who want to stay remote or hybrid that there is a clear career path for them."
Mark Ma, a research professor at the University of Pittsburgh, studies social and economic issues including Return To Office (RTO) mandates, AI, and tax evasion. A working parent during the pandemic, Mark describes how personal and community experiences initially generated his interest in researching remote work options and hybrid policies. He shares his discoveries that stock market declines generated RTO mandates but not improved corporate results. Mark discusses the dynamics of executives’ control, power, and distrust affecting work policies. He advocates for workplace flexibility—giving employees and teams choices.
TAKEAWAYS
[02:23] While Mark’s parents advised him to study accounting, he found it fascinating.
[03:01] For his PhD, Mark explores financial analysis, and his tax avoidance research is cited.
[03:45] Passionate about research, Mark pursues academia, also appreciating the flexible lifestyle.
[05:09] Parental challenges during the pandemic fuels Mark’s interest in remote work options.
[05:50] Noticing neighbors’ complaints about returning to the office, Mark attends a conference and hears about working from home research.
[06:41] Mark gets tenure and explores risky research projects that help improve people’s lives.
[08:25] In late 2022, Mark starts collecting data on companies’ return-to-office mandates.
[09:25] Leaders say remote workers aren’t working hard, while employees keep performing.
[11:06] Return-To-Office mandates often happen after a stock price crash—but why?
[12:00] How remote work gets blamed—without evidence—for poor performance.
[14:36] RTO mandates also result from executives’ loss of control and not trusting employees.
[15:40] Companies may also use RTO policies to easily/cheaply lay off employees.
[18:16] Male and powerful CEOs—with higher relative salaries—issue more RTO mandates to assert control.
[21:38] Employee and team choice is recommended combined with intentional office time.
[22:32] Mark needs data from companies offering employee choice to confirm the best approach.
[24:58] Amazon’s shifts to 3-days/wk then 5-days/week RTO has caused employee dissatisfaction and departures.
[25:50] One example of Nvidia’s flexible policy enables it to benefit from Amazon’s rigid one.
[26:59] Mark finds no evidence that RTO mandates help firms’ performance or stock price.
[27:43] Should productivity be measured appropriately and over what time period?
[29:12] States level data shows structured hybrid work reduces depression and suicide risks.
[32:00] Fully remote workers often self-select which fits their lifestyle and social setup.
[32:50] Companies going fully remote need regular off-site engagements to mitigate isolation.
[34:18] New research explores RTO mandates’ affect turnover, especially in finance and tech.
[35:20] Initial findings show higher turnover, especially among women, follows RTO mandates.
[36:48] After RTOs announcements, turnover increases quickly as some people can’t go back to the office.
[39:06] IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: “First, allow flexibility so employees have choice. Second, promote flexible team leaders to signal that people working from home will not be penalized. Third, for new graduate hires who want to work at the office, ensure mentors are present to support them.
RESOURCES
Is Workplace Flexibility Good for the Environment?
Research on Return To Office Mandates
Mental Health Benefits of Workplace Flexibility
QUOTES
“The more powerful CEOs and the male CEOs are more likely to impose return-to-office mandates.”
“You should allow team choice plus employee choice. That means teams decide when they want to come to office together. And on those in office days, those meetings should be intentional.”
“We clearly do not find any evidence that Return To Office mandates help firms’ performance or stock price.”
“Five-day in-office work is not necessarily good for your mental health.”
“A lot of top executives, when they do not see the employees in the office, they do not trust the employees. They feel they have lost control of the employees.”
"Firms are telling their employees, you can work from home, but you will not be promoted. That's not a good strategy because your good employees will leave."
"By promoting flexible team leaders, you will send a signal to those people who want to stay remote or hybrid that there is a clear career path for them."
Previous Episode
127: Mika Cross - Learning from Public Sector Distributed Teams, Telework, and Wellness
Mika Cross is a Workplace Transformation Strategist at Strategy@Work. She discusses her military career and years federal government agency experience including talent management, workplace flexibility, and wellness. Mika shares her approach to distributed teams, performance management, and work-life balance. She describes how flexible private sector workforce management policies, informed by public sector successes, foster engagement, retain talent, and meet the diverse needs of the modern, distributed workforce. Mika describes how remote work options allow us to reimagine veterans’ and civilians’ working lives and communities.
TAKEAWAYS
[02:39] MIka works wants to be a journalist then has to take a break in her studies.
[03:17] A mentor suggests military service so Mika can complete her education and serve nobly.
[04:26] Mika has some job options from Uncle Sam after finishing top three in her officer training class.
[05:35] Mika is attracted by inclusive workplaces that support the whole soldier and family.
[06:32] Working for a rapidly deployable unit, Mika must support distributed teams holistically.
[07:33] The military is facing shortages, how can retention be improved using flexibility?
[09:15] How to share knowledge across agencies while dealing with confidential information.
[10:31] What does employee experience look like in the federal government?
[11:49] The power of communication to enable effective policy implementation.
[13:41] Managers want discretion and information to make the right decisions for their teams.
[16:11] With deep knowledge of federal regulations, Mika takes an integrated systems approach.
[17:44] What are the blocks to effective equal opportunity?
[18:37] Mika finds some workplace flexibility policy options blocked by supervisors.
[19:50] Mindsets can prevent advancements or enable cultural transformation.
[21:26] How to measure the impact of policies including cost savings.
[23:04] Taking a multi-pronged approach with broad buy in and incentivized training.
[24:25] Celebrating wins, measuring engagement, and saving on leases.
[25:34] The benefits of getting multiple share stakeholders on board.
[26:36] The USDA gets recognition and rewards as one of America's best workplaces.
[27:25] Achieving savings of $8 million per year through telecommuting.
[31:00] Negotiating work policies with 92 unions!
[36:34] Enabling veterans’ smooth transitions into civilian jobs requires many types of flexibility.
[38:20] Mika explores upskilling, reskilling and benefits.
[40:14] Veterans often returning to Hometown USA find few jobs after years of rural brain drain.
[41:20] Three ways to provide thriving healthy supportive workplaces to veterans.
[42:43] Military spouses need remote work options as they support transitioning veterans.
[45:01] The wild opportunity to reimagine the nation, rebuilding Hometown USA.
[46:58] The importance of soft skills -- or success skills as Mike calls them.
[48:18] Mika believes in career readiness skills so workers learn how to work.
[49:14] Moving to a skills-based talent economy.
[50:27] IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: If you don’t include flexibility in your work policies and turnover increases, recognize the burden on employees who stay and the loss of skills and organizational knowledge. Instead, extend a little trust and autonomy first, hold people accountable second, and teach flexible open mindsets.
RESOURCES
QUOTES
“I ended up seeing the power of inclusive workplaces, supportive workplaces, policies, procedures and programs that supported the whole soldier in order to get the best out of our troops, especially when they are deploying into conflict and being separated from their families and having to support the other half of that equation, which is their spouse, their families, their children, their loved ones.”
“It really helped me to inform, regardless of what my work was or what projects I was working on, how are people interpreting even the wording in these policies to be able to implement them successfully the way we intended.”
“The Secretary of Agriculture had included telework work life and wellness as a component of his vision for cultural transformation and had monthly metrics to which he reviewed and held his sub cabinet committee accountable for each and every month.”
“If you have jobs that are suitable to be done in a remote capacity, could you be leveraging those remote jobs for the purpose of attracting and hiring an amazing skillset of talent from either military spouses or transitioning veterans?”
Next Episode
129: Vidya Krishnan - Strategic Systems-based Upskilling to Enable Internal Talent Mobility
Vidya Krishnan, Chief Learning Officer at Ericsson, combines her engineering experience, systems thinking, and love of learning to connect core upskilling with corporate strategy. For Vidya, learning at the speed of technology development requires a learning mindset and future-focused dynamic approach to jobs and skills. Vidya explains how a project marketplace enables internal talent mobility: redesigning work with a skills-focus; facilitating evolution to ‘resource fluidity’; and allowing organic shifts into emerging areas as employees gravitate towards where work is flowing. Vidya recommends stability management with change management.
TAKEAWAYS
[02:06] Vidya studies electrical engineering influenced by her family’s engineering legacy.
[03:16] Deeply admiring engineering and loving learning, Vidya admits she had ‘will before skill’.
[04:14] Vidya promotes internships: good summertime feedback boosts her while some college studies challenge.
[05:07] For personal reasons Vidya leaves AT&T joining Nortel (acquired by Ericsson) in Dallas.
[06:19] Always an engineer, now focused on people’s experiences in L&D, Vidya loves teaching.
[08:24] Learning is as the heart of every transformation for Vidya’s team and workplace.
[09:19] Learning even more from failure, by addressing both shame and ignorance after mistakes.
[11:11] Technology and people are inherently upgradable—ongoing learning at a tech company.
[12:34] How engineers need "power skills" like storytelling and managing stakeholders.
[14:05] Looking creatively to other industries, like aviation, to solve engineering challenges.
[16:49] Vidya has a double life for three years learning and networking at learning conferences.
[18:54] Managers want her to advance in engineering, but Vidya is determined to change field.
[19:45] Vidya overcomes self-doubt and family concerns while transitioning her career.
[21:15] After three years, Vidya transitions horizontally into technical training for customers.
[22:56] Becoming a studio offering digital learning using multimedia and experiential techniques.
[23:41] How to create capabilities that customers will pay for and employees value.
[27:00] Systems thinking to describe work’s three dimensions: digital ecosystem, business system, and culture system.
[30:14] A systems vs programmatic approach to work is strategic and natural at a tech company.
[31:20] Skills development is vital and therefore must be connected to company strategy.
[33:21] Constructing a framework where skills are derivative of corporate strategy.
[34:20] Starting with the one skill that is most consequential to the strategy—less is more.
[36:20] Two sets of skills—global critical skills (top down) and job role skills (bottom up).
[37:30] Digitalizing a job architecture starts development of a skills taxonomy.
[38:23] Getting on the skills games board through credentialing and contribution.
[39:13] To be future focused, skills and job roles are digitalized into a relational database.
[40:40] Skills’ journey phases: initialize, mobilize, and capitalize advancing with winnable games.
[43:10] "Resource fluidity" is where employees’ skills are not confined to their job role—reskill and constantly redeploy.
[44:45] A talent marketplace that is a project marketplace redesigns work to put skills to work.
[47:43] Disaggregating work into projects enables work packages doable outside of people’s day jobs—a third space—to develop new skills.
[50:30] Enabling employees to gravitate towards emerging areas from eroding areas.
[51:35] The hypothesis that progressive career reinvention at scale will pay for itself.
[52:25] A project marketplace creates capability and expands capacity.
[54:50] Partnership is the new leadership, and co-creation and co-ownership are key to execution.
[56:10] Stability management needs to accompany change management.
[57:16] How business cross-functionality can allow varied thinking and ‘wicked’ problem solving.
[58:13] Project marketplace decouples work from many traditional boundaries.
[01:00:21] IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: Start now. Start small with one critical skill. Connect it to strategy, which is done systematically.
RESOURCES
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