The Westminster Tradition - 16. Taking responsibility - lessons from Robodebt

16. Taking responsibility - lessons from Robodebt

Explicit content warning

11/30/23 • 47 min

The Westminster Tradition

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question.
Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away.
The discussion covers
- capturing the right data, and sharing it routinely and publicly
- risk as a frame for empowering people to push unwelcome information up
- the challenges with record keeping for institutional continuity, including the lost art of capturing decisions
Referenced in the episode:
- The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, on building safety culture
- The Squid Hunter by David Grann (Alison's giant squid article)
Intro and further grabs from our special bonus episode interview with Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe Law School.
Later grabs from: Mr Finn Pratt AO PSM and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 10 November 2022, and Ms Serena Wilson and Mr Justin Greggery KC, 9 November 2022.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!

Previous Episode

undefined - Bonus Episode: Dr Darren O'Donovon on centering the victims of Robodebt, the fragmentation of knowledge and accountability, and the creation of moral discomfort

Bonus Episode: Dr Darren O'Donovon on centering the victims of Robodebt, the fragmentation of knowledge and accountability, and the creation of moral discomfort

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview, Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt.
*This was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.*

Some references from the interview include:

Frank Kafka Before the Law
Pamela Herd and Donald Moynihan Administrative Burden: Policymaking by other means (2019)
Homi Bhabha The Other Question: Stereotype, discrimination and the discourse of colonialism (2001)
Evidence from Michael Kerr-Brown re ATO being well positioned to push back against the DHS request, transcript from 12 December 2022 p. 1615
Nick Gill, Nothing Personal? Geographies of Governing and Activism in the British Asylum System (2015)
Darren O'Donovan Victims now know they were right about robodebt all along at The Conversation

Grabs included are:

Angus Scott KC, Louise Macleod (Ombudsman) and Commissioner Holmes, 8 March
Jason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022
Commissioner Holmes and Michael Kerr-Brown (ATO), 12 December 2022
Tim Ffrench (DHS), 22 February 2022

Next Episode

Bonus episode: Sue Vardon AO - inaugural CE of Centrelink (1997-2004)

In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission. Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same.
She also takes us through her career, from being the only social worker in Wagga Wagga through to leading the establishment of Centrelink.
Along the way, she covers the difference between being a 'customer' and a 'recipient', the snap back of bureaucratic and hierarchical cultures, the value of operational experience and much more.
Grab at around 1 hr 6 min is Commissioner Holmes and Kathryn Campbell AO CSC and Bar, November 11 2022.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Sue Vardon AO has 23 years of experience as a public sector Chief Executive, including CE of the Office of Public Sector Reform, the Public Service Commissioner and the CE of the Department for Correctional Services in South Australia. She was inaugural CE of Centrelink in 1997, a position she held until 2004. She finished her full-time public service career as CE of the South Australian Department for Families and Communities. She was the first Telstra Businesswoman of the Year.