The Westminster Tradition

An explainer episode on what Robodebt is, how it unfolded, and why public servants should be interested in finding out more. Far from a political conspiracy, the Robodebt Royal Commission has shown that it was a creature of the public service. Join Alison, Danielle and Caroline, as they reflect on the lessons of Robodebt through the lens of their public service careers.
Credit to Rick Morton for the incisive way he explains Robodebt, which we have cribbed in this episode. You can read his even better description in his Monthly essay here.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
*Hey, this is one of our early recordings, we’re still getting it together and Caroline had COVID. Stick with us.
Intro grab features the Hon Alan Tudge and Commissioner Catherine Holmes

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, consistent with the Public Sector Code of Ethics that permits public servants to promote an outcome in relation to an issue of public interest - in this case, the betterment of the public service.
Nothing we say should be taken as representing the views of the Government or our employers.
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!

How will automation impact the ability of people to seek review of administrative decisions by government agencies?
In this episode, we talk about the human bias toward thinking computers are right, and take a brief digression into another public service scandal - The Great Post Office Trial - where discrepancies on a computer screen were used as proof to send people to jail.
You can find Alison's homework reading by former Chief Justice French here.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Intro grab features Robodebt victim, Rosemary Gay, and Counsel Assisting Douglas Freeburn.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, consistent with the Public Sector Code of Ethics that permits public servants to promote an outcome in relation to an issue of public interest - in this case, the betterment of the public service.
Nothing we say should be taken as representing the views of the Government or our employers.
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!

In our final episode on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt, we tackle the implications of algorithms being commercial in confidence property of third party providers, legacy ICT systems, plus recognise we need to lean in to understanding AI and how it works.
We do a second mini-dive into the Great British Post Office scandal - this time into the systemic racism that underpinned its operation.
We finish up by thinking about how AI black box decision making may interact with a historic trend of government interventions that focus on individual entitlement, rather than community needs.
You can find more information about the legal landscape of automated decision making in Anna Huggins (2021) "Addressing Disconnection: Automated decision-making, administrative law and regulatory reform".
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
*The intro grab this week is an AI called Russell reading an extract from Minister Shorten's 25 July 2023 speech at the AFR Government Summit. While an AI voice is on theme, if anyone has access to an actual recording of the speech, we will happily put that up instead. Just email us.*

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, consistent with the Public Sector Code of Ethics that permits public servants to promote an outcome in relation to an issue of public interest - in this case, the betterment of the public service.
Nothing we say should be taken as representing the views of the Government or our employers.
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview, Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt.
*This was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.*

Some references from the interview include:

• Frank Kafka Before the Law
• Pamela Herd and Donald Moynihan Administrative Burden: Policymaking by other means (2019)
• Homi Bhabha The Other Question: Stereotype, discrimination and the discourse of colonialism (2001)
• Evidence from Michael Kerr-Brown re ATO being well positioned to push back against the DHS request, transcript from 12 December 2022 p. 1615
• Nick Gill, Nothing Personal? Geographies of Governing and Activism in the British Asylum System (2015)
• Darren O'Donovan Victims now know they were right about robodebt all along at The Conversation

Grabs included are:

• Angus Scott KC, Louise Macleod (Ombudsman) and Commissioner Holmes, 8 March
• Jason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022
• Commissioner Holmes and Michael Kerr-Brown (ATO), 12 December 2022
• Tim Ffrench (DHS), 22 February 2022

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, consistent with the Public Sector Code of Ethics that permits public servants to promote an outcome in relation to an issue of public interest - in this case, the betterment of the public service.
Nothing we say should be taken as representing the views of the Government or our employers.
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question.
Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away.
The discussion covers
- capturing the right data, and sharing it routinely and publicly
- risk as a frame for empowering people to push unwelcome information up
- the challenges with record keeping for institutional continuity, including the lost art of capturing decisions
Referenced in the episode:
- The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, on building safety culture
- The Squid Hunter by David Grann (Alison's giant squid article)
Intro and further grabs from our special bonus episode interview with Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe Law School.
Later grabs from: Mr Finn Pratt AO PSM and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 10 November 2022, and Ms Serena Wilson and Mr Justin Greggery KC, 9 November 2022.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, consistent with the Public Sector Code of Ethics that permits public servants to promote an outcome in relation to an issue of public interest - in this case, the betterment of the public service.
Nothing we say should be taken as representing the views of the Government or our employers.
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!