The Westminster Tradition

Unpacking lessons for the public service, starting with the Robodebt Royal Commission.
In 2019, after three years, Robodebt was found to be unlawful. The Royal Commission process found it was also immoral and wildly inaccurate. Ultimately the Australian Government was forced to pay $1.8bn back to more than 470,000 Australians. In this podcast we dive deep into public policy failures like Robodebt and the British Post Office scandal - how they start, why they're hard to stop, and the public service lessons we shouldn't forget.

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Top 10 The Westminster Tradition Episodes

Goodpods has curated a list of the 10 best The Westminster Tradition episodes, ranked by the number of listens and likes each episode have garnered from our listeners. If you are listening to The Westminster Tradition for the first time, there's no better place to start than with one of these standout episodes. If you are a fan of the show, vote for your favorite The Westminster Tradition episode by adding your comments to the episode page.

11. Robodebt as algorithm (part 2) - random number generator decision-making

The Westminster Tradition

08/22/23 • 30 min

How will automation impact the ability of people to seek review of administrative decisions by government agencies?
In this episode, we talk about the human bias toward thinking computers are right, and take a brief digression into another public service scandal - The Great Post Office Trial - where discrepancies on a computer screen were used as proof to send people to jail.
You can find Alison's homework reading by former Chief Justice French here.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Intro grab features Robodebt victim, Rosemary Gay, and Counsel Assisting Douglas Freeburn.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!

12. Robodebt as algorithm (part 3) - Jurassic Park ICT and AI

The Westminster Tradition

09/04/23 • 31 min

In our final episode on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt, we tackle the implications of algorithms being commercial in confidence property of third party providers, legacy ICT systems, plus recognise we need to lean in to understanding AI and how it works.
We do a second mini-dive into the Great British Post Office scandal - this time into the systemic racism that underpinned its operation.
We finish up by thinking about how AI black box decision making may interact with a historic trend of government interventions that focus on individual entitlement, rather than community needs.
You can find more information about the legal landscape of automated decision making in Anna Huggins (2021) "Addressing Disconnection: Automated decision-making, administrative law and regulatory reform".
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
*The intro grab this week is an AI called Russell reading an extract from Minister Shorten's 25 July 2023 speech at the AFR Government Summit. While an AI voice is on theme, if anyone has access to an actual recording of the speech, we will happily put that up instead. Just email us.*

14. The Grinch that stole Christmas

The Westminster Tradition

10/16/23 • 36 min

Christmas leave plays an outsize role in Robodebt. Danielle takes us through some of the questions raised about Christmas leave, including who holds the can when people are on leave, and how 'hovering' while you're on leave can confuse and disempower.
She also makes a case that government should never, ever shut down over Christmas, because our work never ends.
Meanwhile, Alison gives another excellent life hack - this time about taking work emails off your phone on leave.
As promised in the episode, here is Commissioner Holmes' finding about what happened to the requested legal advice: "The Commission finds that Ms Campbell instructed DHS officers to cease the process of responding to Mr Jackson’s request for advice, motivated by a concern that the unlawfulness of the Scheme might be exposed to the Ombudsman in the course of its investigation." (see page 189)
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Intro grab features Commissioner Holmes and Ms Annette Musolino, 30 January 2023.
Later grab features Mr Derek Greggery KC and Ms Kathryn Campbell, 7 March 2023.

Bonus Episode: The Robodebt Report is out - early thoughts and reflections

The Westminster Tradition

07/13/23 • 36 min

In this special episode, Caroline and Danielle unpack their feelings about the Royal Commission Report, five days after its release.
We also pick through some of the Commissioner's key findings, as they relate to things discussed in previous episodes.
If you are new to the podcast, we suggest you start at the beginning and come to this after you've listened for a bit.
You can find Rick Morton's podcast here, and his books On Money and 100 Years of Dirt.
Intro grab features Ms Colleen Taylor, 13 December 2022

Mr Bates v Post Office part 8 - ‘The One Where The Report is a Slide Deck’

The Westminster Tradition

11/18/24 • 41 min

Post Office’s internal inquiries never got to the bottom of the situation. Here we unpack how to choose an investigator, getting the information to the person, and what do with a report.
Opening grab from Sir Anthony Hooper, independent chair of Horizon mediation scheme.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Paula Vennels, former Post Office Limited Chief Executive.
Subsequent grab Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair.

Mr Bates v Post Office part 2 - a very poor procurement

The Westminster Tradition

02/06/24 • 31 min

Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place?
And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.)
In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elaborately structured, too clever by half Private Finance Initiative (PFI).
Among other things, we talk about the role of first ministers and Cabinet in resolving disagreements between portfolios with genuinely different interests; the impossibility of outsourcing political risk; and the challenge of working out the truth when everyone you speak to has an agenda.

Harriet Harman, Minister for Social Services, February 2018 letter to PM Blair can be found here.
Geoff Mulgan's December 2018 minute to PM Blair can be found here, and his reflections after appearing at the Inquiry can be found on his blog here.

Opening grab from Lord Alistair Darling, former Chief Secretary of Treasury, 29 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Sir Geoffrey Mulgan, former civil servant No. 10 Downing St, 2 December 2022.
For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

5. How not to stop something - DSS, the Columbia effect, and the first missed opportunity to stop Robodebt

The Westminster Tradition

07/01/23 • 25 min

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the tick-tock of how, in late January and early February 2015, DSS went from having legal advice that said Robodebt was unlawful, to waving it through the Budget process.
We discuss how something that is 'not consistent with legislation' is actually 'illegal', and the impacts of softening language on the bowels of ministers.
Alison gives us a primer on the Columbia Effect, and how the over-simplification of technical detail led to a disastrous outcome from a meeting between DSS and DHS on 20th February 2015.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Intro grab features Counsel Assisting, Mr Derek Greggery KC, and Ms Catherine Halbert, 8 December 2022

4. Culture on the frontlines - Centrelink and Robodebt

The Westminster Tradition

07/01/23 • 26 min

In the second episode of two episodes exploring the culture in DHS and how it contributed to Robodebt, Danielle takes us through the pressures being experienced on the frontline in Centrelink.
From the rise of employee engagement surveys, the use of temporary labour hire, to the decline of unions, this episode explores the importance (and challenge) of knowing what's going on the frontlines.
You can find the Centrelink culture review we discussed here.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Intro grab features Mr Scott Britton, 8 November 2022

3. Culture from the top - DHS and Robodebt

The Westminster Tradition

07/01/23 • 26 min

The first of two episodes looking at the role the culture of DHS played in enabling Robodebt to get off the ground, and keep moving, in spite of all the red flags.
In this episode, Danielle talks us through the ways in which Secretary Kathryn Campbell and her leadership team set the tone, and the efforts of later leaders like Renee Leon to fix the culture.
We discuss our own experiences of trying to improve the culture of teams, and how hard you have to work to make safe spaces.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Intro grab features Ms Tenille Collins, 3 March 2023.

16. Taking responsibility - lessons from Robodebt

The Westminster Tradition

11/30/23 • 47 min

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question.
Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away.
The discussion covers
- capturing the right data, and sharing it routinely and publicly
- risk as a frame for empowering people to push unwelcome information up
- the challenges with record keeping for institutional continuity, including the lost art of capturing decisions
Referenced in the episode:
- The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, on building safety culture
- The Squid Hunter by David Grann (Alison's giant squid article)
Intro and further grabs from our special bonus episode interview with Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe Law School.
Later grabs from: Mr Finn Pratt AO PSM and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 10 November 2022, and Ms Serena Wilson and Mr Justin Greggery KC, 9 November 2022.

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FAQ

How many episodes does The Westminster Tradition have?

The Westminster Tradition currently has 40 episodes available.

What topics does The Westminster Tradition cover?

The podcast is about History, Australian Politics, Podcasts, Scandal and Government.

What is the most popular episode on The Westminster Tradition?

The episode title '8. Advice is just advice - what the lawyers knew about Robodebt' is the most popular.

What is the average episode length on The Westminster Tradition?

The average episode length on The Westminster Tradition is 38 minutes.

How often are episodes of The Westminster Tradition released?

Episodes of The Westminster Tradition are typically released every 13 days, 23 hours.

When was the first episode of The Westminster Tradition?

The first episode of The Westminster Tradition was released on Jul 1, 2023.

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The Westminster Tradition