
(Dispatch from the Scenius) Dr. Mik Kersten’s 2018 DOES TALK, Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework, with commentary from Gene
05/01/20 • 33 min
As mentioned in Episode 1 of The Idealcast, this is Dr. Mik Kersten’s talk from DevOps Enterprise Summit Las Vegas 2018 with exclusive commentary from Gene. , In his presentation, Mik dives into the Flow Framework featured in his work, Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework.
Get Mik’s insights on building a foundation for innovation in the software field. Follow along as he breaks down the lessons learned as a leader in tech working with brands like Microsoft and BMW. Find out what they got right and what he says anyone looking to innovate in tech should start doing immediately. This is a perfect followup to Episode 1.
Episode Timeline:- [00:03] Intro
- [00:52] Meet Mik Kersten
- [02:35] The Flow Framework
- [03:24] Working at Xerox PARC
- [05:29] Epiphany #1: Software architecture and the value stream
- [06:15] Epiphany #2: How Nokia lost the market it created
- [08:57] Epiphany #3: Software innovation and tools for transformation
- [12:33] Carlota Perez and tech revolutions
- [14:39] BMW, Lean principles
- [18:30] Optimizing business value flow in IT
- [22:24] How Microsoft excelled where Nokia couldn't
- [25:10] Flow efficiency and moving towards a connected value network
- [27:42] How they're applying flow framework at Tasktop
- [29:49] Business advice for developers
- [31:22] Finding Dr. Mik Kersten
- [32:02] Outro
Dr. Mik Kersten started his career as a Research Scientist at Xerox PARC where he created the first aspect-oriented development environment. He then pioneered the integration of development tools with Agile and DevOps as part of his Computer Science PhD at the University of British Columbia. Founding Tasktop out of that research, Mik has written over one million lines of open-source code that is still in use today, and he has brought seven successful open-source and commercial products to market.
Mik’s experiences working with some of the largest digital transformations in the world has led him to identify the critical disconnect between business leaders and technologists. Since that time, Mik has been working on creating new tools and a new framework for connecting software value stream networks and enabling the shift from project to product.
Mik is the author of the book Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework. Mik lives with his family in Vancouver, Canada, and travels globally, sharing his vision for transforming how software is built.
YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT- Ways to optimize business value flow for IT
- How fragmented value streams kill productivity.
- The role proxy metrics and silos play in derailing software transformations.
- Why project management and cost centered is the wrong model for transforming a business.
- Slides to Mik Kersten’s Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework
- The Unicorn Project: A Novel about Developers, Digital Disruption, and Thriving in the Age of Data by Gene Kim
- Zone to Win: Organizing to Compete in an Age of Disruption by Geoffrey A. Moore
- Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework by Mik Kersten
- The Phoenix Project: A Novel About IT, DevOps, and Helping Your Business Win by Gene Kim, Kevin Behr, and George Spafford
- Technological Revolutions and Financial Capital by Carlota Perez
- “Project To Product: Beyond the Turning Point,” presentation by Mik Kersten at DevOps Enterprise Summit Las Vegas, 2019
- “How Value Stream Networks Will Transform IT and Business,” presentation by Mik Kersten at DevOps Enterprise Summit London, 2...
As mentioned in Episode 1 of The Idealcast, this is Dr. Mik Kersten’s talk from DevOps Enterprise Summit Las Vegas 2018 with exclusive commentary from Gene. , In his presentation, Mik dives into the Flow Framework featured in his work, Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework.
Get Mik’s insights on building a foundation for innovation in the software field. Follow along as he breaks down the lessons learned as a leader in tech working with brands like Microsoft and BMW. Find out what they got right and what he says anyone looking to innovate in tech should start doing immediately. This is a perfect followup to Episode 1.
Episode Timeline:- [00:03] Intro
- [00:52] Meet Mik Kersten
- [02:35] The Flow Framework
- [03:24] Working at Xerox PARC
- [05:29] Epiphany #1: Software architecture and the value stream
- [06:15] Epiphany #2: How Nokia lost the market it created
- [08:57] Epiphany #3: Software innovation and tools for transformation
- [12:33] Carlota Perez and tech revolutions
- [14:39] BMW, Lean principles
- [18:30] Optimizing business value flow in IT
- [22:24] How Microsoft excelled where Nokia couldn't
- [25:10] Flow efficiency and moving towards a connected value network
- [27:42] How they're applying flow framework at Tasktop
- [29:49] Business advice for developers
- [31:22] Finding Dr. Mik Kersten
- [32:02] Outro
Dr. Mik Kersten started his career as a Research Scientist at Xerox PARC where he created the first aspect-oriented development environment. He then pioneered the integration of development tools with Agile and DevOps as part of his Computer Science PhD at the University of British Columbia. Founding Tasktop out of that research, Mik has written over one million lines of open-source code that is still in use today, and he has brought seven successful open-source and commercial products to market.
Mik’s experiences working with some of the largest digital transformations in the world has led him to identify the critical disconnect between business leaders and technologists. Since that time, Mik has been working on creating new tools and a new framework for connecting software value stream networks and enabling the shift from project to product.
Mik is the author of the book Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework. Mik lives with his family in Vancouver, Canada, and travels globally, sharing his vision for transforming how software is built.
YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT- Ways to optimize business value flow for IT
- How fragmented value streams kill productivity.
- The role proxy metrics and silos play in derailing software transformations.
- Why project management and cost centered is the wrong model for transforming a business.
- Slides to Mik Kersten’s Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework
- The Unicorn Project: A Novel about Developers, Digital Disruption, and Thriving in the Age of Data by Gene Kim
- Zone to Win: Organizing to Compete in an Age of Disruption by Geoffrey A. Moore
- Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework by Mik Kersten
- The Phoenix Project: A Novel About IT, DevOps, and Helping Your Business Win by Gene Kim, Kevin Behr, and George Spafford
- Technological Revolutions and Financial Capital by Carlota Perez
- “Project To Product: Beyond the Turning Point,” presentation by Mik Kersten at DevOps Enterprise Summit Las Vegas, 2019
- “How Value Stream Networks Will Transform IT and Business,” presentation by Mik Kersten at DevOps Enterprise Summit London, 2...
Previous Episode

Digital Disruption, The Five Ideals: Peter Moore and Dr. Mik Kersten
This episode dives into the Five Ideals, key principles for success in a digital age, as they are introduced with two eminent experts that Gene admires greatly. For years, Dr. Mik Kersten’s work on dev productivity and digital disruption informed many of the core concepts found in The Unicorn Project.
Peter Moore is a business strategy and technology advisor who specializes in helping companies compete in the age of digital disruption. Newly acquainted within the last year, Peter has already shared so much with Gene and Mik about how we can best use technology to win in the marketplace, from the business leadership perspective which is something every technology leader needs to know and embrace.
ABOUT THE GUESTSDr. Mik Kersten started his career as a Research Scientist at Xerox PARC where he created the first aspect-oriented development environment. He then pioneered the integration of development tools with Agile and DevOps as part of his Computer Science PhD at the University of British Columbia. Founding Tasktop out of that research, Mik has written over one million lines of open-source code that is still in use today, and he has brought seven successful open-source and commercial products to market.
Mik’s experiences working with some of the largest digital transformations in the world has led him to identify the critical disconnect between business leaders and technologists. Since that time, Mik has been working on creating new tools and a new framework for connecting software value stream networks and enabling the shift from project to product.
Mik is the author of the book Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework. Mik lives with his family in Vancouver, Canada, and travels globally, sharing his vision for transforming how software is built.
Peter D. Moore is a business and digital technology strategy advisor specializing in helping companies manage for exponential revenue, margin and net income growth. Over the past 15 years, Mr. Moore has worked with CEO’s, COO’s and other C-Suite executives from Citigroup, Charles Schwab, Johnson & Johnson, Mead Westvaco, Microsoft, Tommy Hilfiger, SAP, SAS Institute and U.S. Trust.
Over the past five years he has collaborated with his brother Geoffrey Moore to develop new models and tools to enable companies to effectively compete in the new age of digital disruption. He has introduced a new 4 Zone Model to help C-Suite executives and their senior leadership teams maximize the business value of digital technology within their organizations. Client engagements include Amgen, Box, Clorox, FedEx, ICANN, Intuit, Molina Healthcare, SpaceX, Splunk, UBER and VMware.
YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT- How DevOps and digital disruption will bring in the Age of Software and Data.
- A way to organize your technology portfolio and free its future from the pull of the past
- The about First Ideal, the “lunch factor, and what is required to unleash developer productivity
- About the Second Ideal, flow, and the conditions that allow developers to be orders of magnitude more productive than the competition
- About the Fifth Ideal, core vs. context, and ensuring that context doesn’t starve core
- About Sarah Moulton, the SVP of Retail Operations, who we must either work with, or compete with
- The Unicorn Project: A Novel about Developers, Digital Disruption, and Thriving in the Age of Data by Gene Kim
- Zone to Win: Organizing to Compete in an Age of Disruption by Geoffrey A. Moore
- Project to Product: How to Survive and Thrive in the Age of Digital Disruption with the Flow Framework by Mik Kersten
- The Phoenix Project: A Novel About IT, DevOps, and Helping Your Business Win by Gene Kim, Kevin Behr, and George Spafford
- Technological Revolutions and Financial Capital by Carlota Perez
- “Project To Product: Beyond the Turning Point,” presentation by Mik Kersten at DevOps Enterprise Summit Las Vegas, 2019
Next Episode

Achieving Better Outcomes Through Structure: A Conversation with Elisabeth Hendrickson
In Episode 3, Gene Kim is joined by Elisabeth Hendrickson, who inspired many ideas in The DevOps Handbook and, more recently, The Unicorn Project. She has shaped the way Gene sees the world of DevOps. From Developer to Tester ratios, to the importance of architecture, and the need for leaders to decompose systems well.
Together they explore her years as VP R&D for Pivotal Software, Inc., software development, and the link between organizations and architecture. In a wide-ranging discussion, they cover Elisabeth’s mental model of balance, structure, and flow, to her view of how organizations really work. Listen as Gene and Elisabeth explore her WordCount Simulation, to her personal experience with MIT’s Beer Game, and much more.
ABOUT THE GUESTS
Elisabeth Hendrickson is a leader in software engineering. She most recently served as VP R&D for Pivotal Software, Inc. A lifelong learner, she has spent time in every facet of software development, from project management to design for companies ranging from small start-ups to multinational software vendors. She has helped organizations build software in a more efficient way and pioneered a new way to think about achieving quality outcomes and how that hinges on fast and effective feedback loops. Her book, Explore It!: Reduce Risk and Increase Confidence with Exploratory Testing, was released in 2013 and is explores technical excellence and mastery, and creating effective feedback loops for everyone. She spoke at the DevOps Enterprise Summit in 2014, 2015, and 2018, and received the Gordon Pask Award from the Agile Alliance in 2010.
YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT
- How to build software in a more efficient way
- Elisabeth’s mental model of balance, structure and flow
- How Conway’s law applies to Elisabeth’s model
- Elisabeth’s WordCount Simulation
Episode Timeline:
- [00:09] Intro
- [00:15] Meet Elisabeth Hendrickson
- [04:14] “Better Testing - Worst Quality?”
- [04:54] “Managing the Proportion of Testers to (Other) Developers”
- [08:25] How to get great testing behaviors
- [13:29] How structure enables developers to work on features
- [16:08] Applying principle to non-functional requirements
- [18:43] Conway’s law and Inverse Conway Maneuver
- [27:43] Elisabeth’s model on balance, structure and flow
- [31:01] MIT’s Beer Game
- [36:41] The WordCount Simulation
- [44:54] Becoming a good partner
- [50:03] Drawing lines as a leader
- [55:39] The Five Ideals
- [57:33] Stuck in a cost center
- [1:05:44] It’s all about feedback
- [1:10:50] The Phoenix Project’s Sarah’s background
- [1:19:09] Who is your first team?
- [1:28:07] Finding Elisabeth Hendrickson
- [1:28:29] Outro
RESOURCES
- Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott
- The four quadrants of Radical Candor
- Ruinous Empathy
- Manipulative Insincerity
- Obnoxious Aggression
- Radical Candor
- Dangerous Company: The Consulting Powerhouses and the Businesses They Save and Ruin by James O’Shea
- Explore It!: Reduce Risk and Increase Confidence with Exploratory Testing by Elisabeth Hendrickson
- Better Testing, Worse Quality? by Elisabeth Hendrickson
- Managing Proportions of Testing to (Other) Developers by Dr. Cern Kaner, Elisabeth Hendrickson, and Jennifer Smith-Brok
- When NASA Lost a Spacecraft Due to a Metric Math Mistake by Ajay Harish
- Lockheed: New Carrier Hook for F-35 by Dave Majumdar
- Conway's law
- Decoding the DNA of the Toyota Production System by Steven Spear and H. Kent Bowen
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