Sustain

Amanda Casari | Julie Ferraioli | Juniper Lovato

Richard Littauer

In today’s episode of Sustain, Richard is joined by guests, Amanda Casari, devrel engineer and open source researcher at Google Open Source Programs Office, Julie Ferraioli, an independent open source strategist, researcher, practitioner, and Partner at Open Chapters, and Juniper Lovato, Director of partnerships and programs at the Vermont Complex Systems Center at UVM and Data Ethics researcher. Amanda, Julia, and Juniper join the discussion, bringing a wealth of expertise in the open source domain. The conversation gravitates towards an article co-authored by the guests, striking a balance between open source software and open source ecosystems research. The episode dives deep into the “10 simple things” format of the article, the crucial importance of collective conversations, and a keen exploration of open source researchers. Hit download now to hear more cool stuff!

[00:01:29] Richard tells us why he invited our three guests today and he talks about their previous accomplishments and backgrounds.

[00:02:17] Our discussion moves to the title of a new article co-authored by the guests. We hear about the intended audience of the article and the distinction made between open source software and open source ecosystems research.

[00:03:31] Richard brings up where the article fits in the academic landscape, and it’s revealed to be more editorial than research.

[00:04:17] There’s a conversation about the “10 simple things” format, its origin, and the motivation behind it. They put an emphasis on the need for collective conversation and the value of sharing experiences and knowledge.

[00:07:28] Richard brings up the idea of open source researchers and mentions various figures and institutions involved in open source research. Juniper clarifies the target audience for the article and its intentions, Julie shares her perspective from the industry side and the importance of a critical framework, and Amanda expresses her emotional response to some researchers’ approach towards the open source community.

[00:12:03] Julie discusses the emotional challenges that inspired the paper’s best practices emphasizing not repeating negative behaviors, and Juniper notes tension in research between benefits for the community and for the researchers emphasizing understanding norms and values for studying open source communities.

[00:13:52] Richard mentions there are nine principles in the paper and asks about the principle regarding treating open source ecosystems as systems “in production.” Amanda highlights the importance of considering the real-world impact of research in open source and mentions an incident where a university was banned from the Linux kernel due to disruptive changes.

[00:16:33] Julie emphasizes the potential broader impact on industry systems when modifying open source systems and she raises the point that tampering with open source systems might inadvertently affect critical infrastructure. Amanda comments on the increasing cybersecurity concerns around open source.

[00:19:18] Richard brings up a real-world example of a university introducing bugs to the Linux kernel and points out the need for considering ethical implications beyond just production systems.

[00:20:59] Richard draws parallels between addressing these issues and addressing racism, and Juniper adds that the scientific process is ongoing and should evolve with technology and societal values.

[00:21:53] Julie describes the complexity of open source funding and compensation and points out the challenge in understanding motivations and expectations of open source participants.

[00:24:07] Amanda emphasizes the difficulty of summarizing each section, noting that each one could be a chapter or book and she expresses her concerns about not just individual equity but organizational equity.

[00:25:59] Juniper raises the issue of invisible labor in open source.

[00:26:39] Julie highlights the importance of recognizing that open source repository data might not capture all the activity and contributions made by community members.

[00:27:37] Amanda discusses the challenges and importance of capturing data, especially when it may put individuals at risk. Juniper stresses the importance of involving communities in the research process and gaining their consent, ensuring their dignity, security, and privacy.

[00:29:49] Julie discusses the complexities of identity within the open source community, highlighting that individuals can hold multiple identities in this space.

[00:31:10] Richard adds that the insight shared are not just for open source researchers but also for anyone involved in the open source ecosystem. He emphasizes the need to be aware of biases and the importance of understanding the data one works wi...

Allen "Gunner" Gunn | Justin Dorfman | Pia Mancini | Richard Littauer

Tobie Langel

Welcome to Sustain! On today’s episode, we have special guest, Tobie Langel, the Founder of UnlockOpen, from Geneva, Switzerland. Tobie tells us all about UnlockOpen and what he does there. He tells us how he focuses on convincing companies that they need to contribute back to Open Source. Other topics we will talk about are DevOps culture, prototype JavaScript framework not being updated since 2015, which Tobie extensively explains what happened, as well as speaking about lessons to be learned and things we need to be aware of. There is so much great advice and stories shared on this episode. Download it now!

[00:01:19] Tobie tells us about UnlockOpen and what he does.

[00:02:30] Richard wants to know how do you get in the door as a consultant to try to talk to people about how they should use Open Source and how do you pitch that to people that don’t know what Open Source is?

[00:08:04] Tobie discusses how he focuses on convincing companies that they need to contribute back to Open Source. Pia wonders if Tobie thinks we’re making progress towards cultural changes within the audience?

[00:12:10] Allen asks Tobie if he’s advancing the notion of DevOps as a gateway drug for all of this open culture. Tobie mentions a book he’s reading called, Accelerate, that_ _talks about the benefits of DevOps culture to companies from a business perspective.

[00:14:13] Justin wants to know where Tobie got his kind of background and he also wonders about project abandonment, and prototype JavaScript framework hasn’t been updated since 2015. So, what happened there and what lessons could be learned?

[00:24:06] Tobie speaks about learning from history, about lessons to be learned, and things we have to be aware of.

[00:26:06] Tobie mentions how he’s a huge fan of DHH and Basecamp and he gives some great advice that he’s learned on focusing on things that matter long term. Justin and Richard also have some positive advice and stories to share as well.

[00:35:25] Richard makes an awesome statement here about being resilient.

[00:36:20] Tobie tells us where we can find him to learn more about him.

• [00:38:03] Justin’s spotlight is our first bonus podcast episode (#41) with Dave Gandy, and we discussed Font Awesome 6, the donut diet, commitments, and more. Check it out! ☺
• [00:42:23] Allen’s spotlight is Open Tech Fund.
• [00:38:56] Richard’s spotlight is Aral Balkan, a cyborg rights activist.
• [00:39:17] Toby’s spotlight is a book by Nadia Eghbal called, Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software.

“It boils down to bottom line and top line. To some degree it’s more than that, obviously, culture, brand, making people feel happy to work in a company. All of those are critical for a company.”

[00:10:45] “And we are at the point where we need to cross the chasm. So maybe move that from being something that is essentially something adopted by a few really performant companies at the helm of this effort and move that across to become more mainstream.

[00:16:47] “And so the funny thing is I essentially learned JavaScript by reading the source code because there was no documentation and I started contributing to the library by writing documentation for it.”

[00:17:44] “It took a lot of time for Sam to realize that he was burning out and just couldn’t spend the time that was needed to give more authority to other people on the project.”

[00:21:58] “There was a lot of energy, and people are ready to do a lot of things for the rocket ship because you also benefit personally quite a bit when you’re investing your time in a rocket ship.”

[00:25:19] “This goes right to the heart of what we’re trying to talk about here. And so I think one of the things that I’m really picking up from what you’re saying is that it’s better to dedicate yourself towards an ideology of working well in the open, of working with other people, of trying to consistently not just stay ahead of the curve, but work in a way that what you do will matter later.”

[00:34:20] “At the same time you could carry that comparison even further kind of ad absurdum, like everything’s the same, because we all need to eat and we all get tired and we all get sleepy and we all get hungry, we’re all kind of anxious and we have to work with other people and what wears kind of annoying and it’s pretty tough.”

Tobie Langel Twitter

UnlockOpen

Manuel Riel

Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman

Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we are super excited to have as our guest, Manuel Riel, joining us from Austria. Manu ran a web development agency and launched multiple open source related products, including an invoice processing tool, and a backup service. He’s also the Co-founder of PikaPods, which is a container hosting service for open source apps. Manu is with us to talk about PikaPods. We’ll find out what it does, why it’s needed, the benefits of having it, the most popular app, and plans he has in the future for PikaPods. Go ahead and download this episode to learn more!

[00:01:23] Manu tells us his background, what PikaPods is, and about the apps.

[00:03:32] What’s the difference between Heroku, Netlify, and PikaPods?

[00:04:29] Since you can’t run your own stuff and you can’t edit the apps, Manu explains how this is an open source marketplace. We hear about PikaPods user base, how long he’s been up and running, and how many people are using the platform.

[00:06:11] Manu explains the one source of revenue they provide to open source office.

[00:09:06] We hear Manu’s selling point he pitches to open source maintainers and open source projects.

[00:11:45] Why did Manu choose to work with open source projects to host when there are other things available to him? Why PikaPods?

[00:13:32] Justin brings up pricing on PikaPods site and comments a trend with the ones that paid the least had the most demands. He wonders how Manu deals with that.

[00:15:04] Justin wonders if the services are subsidized by using the BorgBase infrastructure, and Manu explains how they are totally separate, and he tells us about his team.

[00:16:31] We hear if there are any collabs with maintainers Manu is working with since there are a lot of projects he hosts.

[00:18:02] Find out PikaPods most popular app, if there’s a limit, and if bandwidth is an issue.

[00:21:17] Manu shares some things he would like to do in the future with PikaPods.

[00:23:35] How does Manu position himself in the ecosystem and are there other things that could be used in collaboration with PikaPods that makes it easier for maintainers?

[00:25:37] Find out where you can follow Manu and PikaPods online.

[00:10:08] “Hosting is not a good fit for part-time maintainers because it’s a big responsibility.”

[00:12:20] “The motivating event for me was the Log4j Vulnerability.”

• [00:26:42] Justin’s spotlight is pydantic, data validation and settings management using Python type hints.
• [00:27:10] Richard’s spotlight is Amna Shamim.
• [00:27:36] Manu’s spotlight is Uptime Kuma, a fancy self-hosted monitoring tool.

• SustainOSS
• SustainOSS Twitter
• SustainOSS Discourse
• [email protected]
• Richard Littauer Twitter
• Justin Dorfman Twitter
• PikaPods
• PikaPods Twitter
• Apache Log4j Vulnerability
• pydantic
• Amna Shamim
• Uptime Kuma

• Produced by Richard Littauer
• Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound
• Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound

Special Guest: Manuel Riel.

Support Sustain

Max Jones

Richard Littauer

In this first ever cross-over episode of Sustain and Open Source for Climate, host Richard welcomes guest Max Jones, a data scientist and open source software developer who works at Carbon Plan. Max discusses the importance of open source in bringing about effective climate action, the role of Carbon Plan in building accessible data products and tools, and how being a nonprofit is advantageous for open source development. The conversation also touches on funding models for open source projects in nonprofits, including support from individual donors, grants, and collaboration with governmental and private entities like NASA and Microsoft. Additionally, Max shares insights into the development of tools for better visualization of climate data, the impact of open source on climate action, and the challenges of ensuring software and data accessibility and reproducibility. Press download now to hear more!
[00:02:50] Richard outlines Max’s background in open source software development focused on climate action, including his leadership role at Carbon Plan.

[00:03:31] Max discusses the mission of Carbon Plan, emphasizing the importance of transparency and accessibility in climate solutions.

[00:04:23] Max describes his role in leading open source initiatives at Carbon Plan.

[00:03:23] The conversation shifts to the practical aspects of running a non-profit focused on open source projects, including funding mechanisms such as grants from NASA.

[00:06:58] Max explains one of their projects that involve tools for visualizing large-scale climate data to assist cities in planning and decision-making. He mentions how these tools are designed to be accessible to both scientists and the general public.

[00:08:13] There’s a discussion about community engagement with their tools, noting that while many people reach out with questions or feature requests, there have been few contributions in terms of pull requests.

[00:08:53] Max reflects on a collaboration with the Washington Post using their tools to inform public understanding of climate projections.

[00:10:37] Max discusses the broader use of the tools by various agencies and the importance of transparency for reproducibility in research.
[00:11:24] Max emphasizes the importance of reproducibility in open source projects across academia, industry, and the non-profit sector, and he acknowledges the challenges in ensuring that external users can engage with and reproduce their computational workflows.

[00:12:56] The conversation shares insights into building a community around open source projects, particularly through involvement with the Pangeo project, which supports reproducibility and scalability in earth science workflows.

[00:14:08] Max talks about the importance of finding common needs across different fields to promote broader collaboration and integration and mentions the Zarr project.

[00:15:51] We hear about the size of the team at Carbon Plan which includes various roles.

[00:16:28] Richard inquires about the funding landscape for open source projects at Carbon Plan. Max mentions the initial funding received through collaborations with NASA and Microsoft. He emphasizes the importance of ongoing government and agency support for both new tools and the maintenance of existing software.

[00:17:51] Max talks about contributing back to open source communities, highlighting the practice of reporting bugs and engaging with upstream dependencies to improve tools.

[00:18:38] The necessity of open source for transparency in climate solutions is discussed, contrasting with closed source companies that sell proprietary products to governments. Max argues for the importance of open source in ensuring accountability and better outcomes in climate solutions.

[00:20:07] Max discusses the broader aspects of open resources, such as leveraging open standards, data, and hardware. He mentions collaborating with other organizations to tackle scalable computing challenges.

[00:21:18] The conversation shifts to the environmental impact of computational work, with Max acknowledging the need for more efficient workflows and the broader implications of their organization’s focus, which includes understanding and adapting to climate change impacts.

[00:24:15] Richard and Max discuss the challenges of making data sets public in a market-driven environment. Max emphasizes the role of nonprofits in pushing for greater transparency and the potential impact of their work on broader technological practices.

[00:26:09] Finally, Max highlights a new project called OffsetsDB, and tell us where you can follow him and his work online.

• [00:03:44] “We believe that it’s necessary to have transparency and accessibility in our research, data, and tools in order to acco...

Jono Bacon

Justin Dorfman | Richard Littauer

Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we have as our special guest, Jono Bacon, a self-employed Community and Collaboration Consultant, author, speaker, and Founder of Jono Bacon Consulting. Jono tells us about his interesting journey with his career, the diversity of his clients, a concern he has with chat channels, and why community is the most important thing in open source. He talks about developers and how to help them see their value and potential to achieve their goals. We learn more about some of the things Jono wrote, including his most recent book, People Powered: How Communities Can Supercharge Your Business, Brands, and Teams, _and how he got the _“star power” behind it. Also, he also shares an awesome story when he worked at XPRIZE, and something that made him realize how unique the open source world really is. Go ahead and download this episode to hear much more!

[00:01:46] Jono tells us how he ended up doing what he does.

[00:03:36] We find out the type of clients Jono has and how he gets them often through referrals.

[00:06:34] Jono talks about how he feels about Discord, Discourse, Gitter, and the open source IRC replacements that are going on right now.

[00:09:42] Richard asks Jono what he thinks the value is of having these side conversations, and how does that help community members have better engagement and build value for them.

[00:13:28] Jono shares his opinion on one of the flaws with individuals in open source and why community is the most important thing.

[00:16:46] Richard wonders how Jono balances the needs of emotionally connecting to everyone in your group and how he makes sure that developers know there is a balance to be met to have the community thrive.

[00:20:30] We learn about some things Jono wrote and he tells us about his most recent book, _People Powered: How Communities Can Supercharge Your Business, Brands, and Teams. _Justin wonders how he got the “star power,” such as Jamie Hyneman and Joseph Gordon-Levitt, in his book.

[00:28:01] We hear an awesome story when Jono worked at XPRIZE and how personalities of people made him realize how unique the open source world really is.

[00:31:42] Richard asks Jono if there are any challenges, anything open source needs help with, and what is down the road for us.

[00:36:44] Find out where you can follow Jono online and learn more about what he does.

[00:07:25] “The second priority that I’ve got is by extension, that anybody who joins the community should get amazing value out of it.”

[00:07:32] “As far as I concerned, if you join a community and you don’t get value out of it, that community hasn’t earned you.”

[00:07:56] “One of the concerns I have with chat channels and chat services in general and I’d include Slack, Mattermost, Discord, Git, all of these, is that by definition, it’s a linear stream of consciousness. So Slack claims that they’ve got history and you can kind of unlock history for example if you pay for it. It just doesn’t work.”

[00:08:41] “That’s why I think even Slack, don’s say this is for community building, it’s for building teams.”

[00:10:00] “So, to me what brings people into communities is they’re there to solve a problem. They’re there to improve their future state, such as they’re using pieces of open source software, and they want to make better use of it and solve their problems or build their applications.”

[00:10:16] “I think what people stay for in the community is an intrinsic sense of belonging and a sense that this is just a good place for me to be.”

[00:13:26] “My take on this is I think one of the flaws of a lot of open source communities, not so much communities but more individuals, is that they always talk about the most important thing is code, is getting code that can be created and shared with a group of people.”

[00:13:57] “But to me, I’m engineering for impact here, whether you’re building a little project to just make certain types of unit testing easier, or whether you’re building a replacement for a major piece of proprietary software.”

[00:14:48] “ The reason why I’m so passionate about community is because if you take a hundred people inside of those hundred people, there are so many ideas and insights and experiences and skills, and so much time available. Then when we can get all of that out into the open, it makes us the best we can be as people.”

[00:17:28] “But, I think most people, a much more kind of, I guess you could say practical than that, and they will do something if they can see the value, and it’s worth it, and they can achieve their broader outcomes.”

[00:18:36] “You need to be inclusive, not just in terms of a rich demographic of peo...