S3E18: Partnership Building: How the Church Encourages Conflict Management through Conflict Avoidance

Explicit content warning

11/01/23 • 71 min

Desire discrepancy is one of the most common challenges that we see in sex therapy.

Desire discrepancy is ultimately a difference in a couple or a group's interest in frequency, quality, or types of sexual interactions.

Desire discrepancy does not necessitate conflict. Conflict occurs when folks are unable to manage those differences, which is a necessary skill inside of and outside of sexual interactions.

However, what happens when you grow up in a system (i.e. the church) that both refuses to talk with you about sexual health, and also encourages you to avoid having conversations that may result in one of you being angry before you go to bed?

Julia and Jeremiah talk about how the discouragement of talking about sexuality negatively impacted their former relationships. Listen to this week’s episode, and learn more about:

Defining Sexual Conflict (10:00): “Sexual conflict and inability to name and navigate sexual differences is still a leading factor in divorce and relationships ending. If we want sustainable and fulfilling relationships, we need the skills to address sexual conflict with a partner or partners.” Jeremiah defines the term that is the focus of today’s episode. This is a principle from the Gottman’s research, which is explored in this series through personal experience and professional training.

Reasons for Divorce (12:00): “So in 2014, Relationships in America conducted a national poll with over 15,000 people in the U. S. 3, 000 of those folks who took the survey said they were divorced, with 2,100 providing specific reasons for divorce. The top five reasons, all of which approximately 30 percent of the respondents identified, were spouse unresponsive to my needs, grew tired of making a poor match work, spouse's immaturity, spouse's sexual or romantic infidelity, getting back to what you said, and emotional abuse.” Jeremiah outlines a study on the reasons couples get divorced. It’s important to note that the top reason, infidelity, is a sexual conflict. Infidelity does not exist in a vacuum, and there are a multitude of reasons for it to occur, Julia then adds: “Infidelity is a complicated topic that deserves its own series. You can also reference our Episode from The Seven Deadly Sins, Don't Commit Adultery. But for the sake of today, infidelity often involves a sexual or erotic component, which I would argue puts infidelity in the sexual conflict category. If it was a factor for divorce by more than one-third of research participants, then that's obviously significant and also significant in terms of research.”

Desire Discrepancy (18:00): “Desire discrepancy is about more than the frequency of sexuality. So often folks say desire discrepancy and are referring to frequency. Desire discrepancy encapsulates so much more about a couple or a group's sexual experiences. The most important thing that I want to note right now is that sexual discrepancy is actually just a difference or a set of differences within a couple or within some sort of other relational system, which is not actually an inherently bad thing.” Julia discusses desire discrepancy which is a sexual conflict. With EMPish (Evangelical, Mormon, Pentecostal) communities, it is encouraged to avoid any and all conflict, which leads to issues such as desire discrepancy not being discussed. Jeremiah adds: “EMPISH communities encourage couples to avoid conflict altogether, both explicitly and implicitly. Mitigating conflict of all kinds, about sex, money, child-rearing, and anything else, is usually a sign of moral and marital success in the EMPISH Christian world. EMPish communities rely on rigid gender roles to prevent conflict, and they tend to promote a relational style that we would call enmeshed in the family.” Enmeshment as defined by Jeremiah is “Someone in an enmeshed relationship is overly connected to a partner or partners and needs to meet the other person's needs so badly that they lose touch with their own needs, goals, desires, and feelings.” An enmeshed family does not allow healthy conflict to exist, because the very existence of conflict go against established gender norms.

Defining Christian Gender Norms (22:00): “Just in case any of our listeners are unfamiliar with genitalia-specific gender roles, I don't know how you found this podcast, but so that we're all on the same page, let me give you a quick little Christian sex ed lesson. This will be very fast. Penis owners, who are exclusively men in EMPish communities, require sexuality in the marital context due to their uncontrollable sexual urges. This means that they are the sexual initiators, which reinforces their dominance and authority within the Christian sphere. Don't let those women be preaching, and don't let them have sexual desires. Sexuality is their right, and wives show respect and deference by being sexually available at all times. In return, men are the providers and protectors for the...

Desire discrepancy is one of the most common challenges that we see in sex therapy.

Desire discrepancy is ultimately a difference in a couple or a group's interest in frequency, quality, or types of sexual interactions.

Desire discrepancy does not necessitate conflict. Conflict occurs when folks are unable to manage those differences, which is a necessary skill inside of and outside of sexual interactions.

Julia and Jeremiah talk about how the discouragement of talking about sexuality negatively impacted their former relationships. Listen to this week’s episode, and learn more about:

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undefined - S3E17: Partnership Building: How to Navigate Deconstruction as a Couple When One Person Starts the Deconstruction Process Earlier, with Nicki and Stephen Pappas

S3E17: Partnership Building: How to Navigate Deconstruction as a Couple When One Person Starts the Deconstruction Process Earlier, with Nicki and Stephen Pappas

We did it! We just released our 100th episode!

And we could not have a more fitting episode than with Nicki (@broadeningthenarrative) and Stephen Pappas. Nicki and Stephen answer the question:

What happens when one person in a partnership begins the deconstruction process before the other partner?

This can be a really intimidating, vulnerable process for a lot of folks, and Nicki and Stephen talk about their process of simultaneously navigating exploration, discovery, hope, grief, and fear of abandonment. We talk about:

Function of Dreams Within the Church (3:00): “Last week, we talked about the unique challenges of identifying and pursuing a life dream when you grew up in an Evangelical, Mormon, or Pentecostal context, or Empish, E M P. In these Empish contexts, women support the dreams of their husbands [...] And then husbands support the quote dreams of the larger church, which is really dictated by the pastor and the broader goals of the American Christian church, often supporting white nationalism and other questionable conservative agendas.” Julia contextualizes how ‘dreaming’ functions within the Church. It exists in a hierarchal system that mirrors that of the patriarchy and is ruled by it. Jeremiah then adds the context of dreaming within the deconstruction process: “This [EMPish Communities] is not a context that fosters dream development individually nor relationally [...] Some of it is super exciting and magical. Some of it is downright gut-wrenching, especially while trying to do all of this healing work in a partnership with someone who is deconstructing and healing in different ways.” Being able to dream while moving through the deconstruction process is incredibly challenging, as a whole new world and way of thinking has been opened up, however, this presents unique issues within a partnership.

Jesus: The Foundation of a Marriage (18:00): “I want to acknowledge how much it shakes a couple that your very foundation is no longer that foundation. [...] The language you've entered the covenant and our sand symbolize, like here's the white sand on the bottom. This is Jesus. Here's his brown sand and my blue sand. Swirling together, becoming so enmeshed because the two become one, the whole reason you're joined together, the whole reason you were attracted to each other, the whole reason you decided to marry was Jesus. That was the foundation. That's the thing you found that you loved about each other. And so when that is gone. What do you have?” Nicki describes how deconstruction shakes the very foundation EMPish marriages are formed on, which is Jesus. Once Jesus is removed from the equation, and thus from the foundation, it is challenging to build a new foundation not based on biblical principles.

Deconstruction is Disorienting (23:00): “My whole bearings are off. Like what I believed about the world is not the reality and what I believed about Christianity or about this life or the afterlife or God is not what I thought it was. And it's just like really disorienting. Yeah, I think a lot of it would come back to if what I had always believed the Bible taught, and now it's being questioned, that would be a really hard conversation, because then it's like, that's the last firm foundation. Cause if I let this go, then what is there?” Stephen talks about losing the foundation Christianity provides and profoundly speaks about a common feeling most folks who are deconstructing experience, which is disorientation. It is a confusing experience to realize a majority of ideas you built your life upon are not right, or do not resonate anymore. Deconstruction affects every element of our lives from our profession, our relationships, our friendships, and more. Julia then synthesizes upon what Stephen says: “That when folks often and I can relate to this move through deconstruction we move through deconstruction, taking this quote-unquote liberal or progressive lens to, to the Bible and to Christianity, so you still have that foundation, that foundation just looks different, and you have new values coming from that same foundation, and at some point for one or for both of you, that foundation eroded, and and and you couldn't fall back on that in the same way you would use the language of disorientation, great language. It also sounds like destabilizing in a literal and a figurative sense.” Julia talks about how attempting to apply a progressive lens to EMPish values causes them to fall apart, and once that progressive lens is applied it is nearly impossible to unsee.

Non-Monogamy (37:00): “I don't think that love is a finite resource. And so people who will say they're not monogamous as a lifestyle choice like they choose to be this way. And for other people, it felt like another coming out of, okay not only am I queer, but this is also like who I am and I've been shamed. There's a stigma about that. Not just in the church. There's a larger culture...

Next Episode

S3E19: Partnership Building: How to Manage Differences in Sexual Desire

Desire discrepancy is a set of differences about the quantity, quality, or types of experiences that a couple or a group want to have.

As we mentioned in the last episode, desire discrepancy is not inherently a source of conflict. The difficulty or inability to negotiate these differences is what leads to conflict.

So how can we talk about the different ways that two (or more) partners might access sexuality?

And not just who wants it more? But the different fantasies, preferences, scenarios needed for a positive sexual experience, and much more?

Julia and Jeremiah talk more about a different way to think about desire discrepancy, including:

Defining Terms (7:54): “Simply put, desire discrepancy is a set of differences about the quantity, quality, or types of experiences that a couple or a group want to have. As we mentioned last week, Desire discrepancy is not inherently a source of conflict. The difficulty or inability to negotiate these differences, that's what leads to conflict.” Jeremiah defines desire discrepancy and how it does not spur conflict, but the lack of communication around it does. Julia adds, “EMPish communities tend to discourage conflict and encourage enmeshment within couples and families. Lack of conflict in EMPish communities is a sign of moral superiority and successful marriage, at least according to their rules. EMPish communities tend to view conflict as a threat to the relationship and ultimately the unity of the couple.” She contextualizes the definition within EMPish (Evangelical, Mormon, and Pentecostal) context. Building upon last weeks episode, Julia, and Jeremiah discuss how working on desire discrepancy often has pitfalls within the sexual health context.

Orgasm Gap (24:00): “According to Jennifer Rubin and colleagues, typically speaking, in opposite-sex relationships, You find that 90 percent of straight men consistently orgasm while only 65 percent of women consistently orgasm [...] So Jennifer Rubin and colleagues also write about how the prioritization of the male partner's sexual pleasure, as well as larger gendered cultural scripts, were negatively associated with the female desire for sexual activity.” Jeremiah discusses how the perception that women have a lower sex drive than men is inaccurate because a majority of the studies on the topic fail to include the orgasm gap as outlined above, the domestic labor women typically are burdened with, and fears that men do not typically associate with sex. Julia then adds: “That is just so deeply depressing. Considering how often women fake orgasms and accounting for the shame of not being able to orgasm, I would highly suspect that 65 percent is high. The super sad part is that women don't actually have a refractory period as men. So if anything, women should be having way more orgasms than men, like way more.” The orgasm gap between men and women is influenced by a load of factors, however, as Julia notes, since women do not have a refractory period, it is insane how big the gap is.

Spontaneous v.s. Responsive Desire (28:00): “Spontaneous desire is a desire that comes fairly naturally, fairly quickly, fairly innately. Whereas responsive desire requires context, requires space, requires time, requires an on ramp, requires a lot of different variables in order to be able to access. So although the field of sexual health has been considering a more expansive definition of sexual desire beyond spontaneous desire in recent years, there's still a move in our field to equate desire with spontaneous desire. When in fact, spontaneous desire and responsive desire or both are equal forms of desire.” Jeremiah talks about the difference between spontaneous vs responsive desire, and how the field of sexual health tends to hold spontaneous desire as the best form of desire. Julia then shares a metaphor for understanding the difference between spontaneous and responsive desire: “The metaphor that Emily Nagoski used during her talk to describe spontaneous and responsive desire. She described spontaneous desire as waking up in the middle of the night Remembering that you have a piece of your favorite cake in the fridge and then thinking Oh my god. I want cake. I want it now. I'm going to get that cake and it's going to be amazing. That's spontaneous desire. Responsive desire is you received an invitation to a birthday party. You responded to that invitation. You go to the party. You might not even really be especially in the mood for cake, but you're at the party. You're with your friends. You see the cake. Your friends are eating the cake. You remember that you love strawberries and chocolate together. You take a bite. You take a couple of bites and oh my god, it's amazing. So the cake is great. The cake is equally good in both scenarios. I would maybe even argue that the cake at the birthday party might even be better. That's just a personal preference. That's one way to consider ...