
Out of Control — How to Lead Through Uncertainty? With Dr. Paul Lawrence
01/26/23 • 52 min
Leaders are expected to get results. In fact, some people will say that’s what leaders get paid for, and they are held accountable when the desired results are not achieved. But, at the same time, leaders can’t really control outcomes, especially during times that seem to become increasingly uncertain. So what can leaders do?
Dr. Paul Lawrence is helping us find answers in this episode. Paul is a leadership consultant, coach, researcher, and author of many books and articles on leadership and coaching.
Key Aspects and Statements
[05:12] Leaders often think there are things they control and others they can’t. What often gets forgotten is the bit in the middle: what we can influence. That’s the real domain of leadership in a complex world where you can’t control results.
[7:14] There are five ways of thinking about systems and about change.
[13:13 ] In the first three ways (linear and non-linear systemic, collaborative systemic), we imply that we are standing outside our organisation, we can diagnose things somehow, and then we'll work out what we need to do. We believe we can control things.
[15:42] In a complex system, however, a leader can't stand outside the organisation. They are part of the system. So, when I, as a leader, put something out there, other people will make sense of what I am saying in their own way. As a result, something quite unexpected may emerge; what the leader wanted and intended didn't happen. In other words, you don't get to control outcomes in a complex system.
What I can do as a leader is to get genuinely curious, get out into the organisation and explore what people are thinking and saying.
[28:14] In research about successful change in organisations, we found one word that stood out: dialogue. Dialogue is a way of engaging people in conversation. Dialogue requires leaders to get out there genuinely curious, to find out what people are saying, how they're thinking, how they're behaving. Leaders need to suspend judgment and be open to the possibility that what emerges from all those conversations might be different from what they expected.
[36:25] The way we think does change; it evolves through that social process of conversation and interaction. And that’s why it’s so important that we challenge how they think about systems and change.
Reflection Questions:
- How can I influence? How might influence happen in unexpected ways? and How can I be personally more at ease with my limitations of influence?
- How can I as a leader be more curious and open to learn from those I wish to influence, not from a point of control but from a point of influence - when it's about them, not about me?
- How do I think about change and how does that sharpen the way that I lead?
Dr. Paul Lawrence's contact details are on his website, and you can find all his books and articles here.
More info about us and our work is also on our website: secondcrackleadership.com.
Do you have any questions, feedback, or suggestions for us? Would you like to explore how we can help you to drive results in your organisations through a company-wide initiative or individual executive coaching? Then email us: hello at secondcrackleadership dot com.
To connect with us on LinkedIn:
Martin AldergårdGerrit Pelzer
Leaders are expected to get results. In fact, some people will say that’s what leaders get paid for, and they are held accountable when the desired results are not achieved. But, at the same time, leaders can’t really control outcomes, especially during times that seem to become increasingly uncertain. So what can leaders do?
Dr. Paul Lawrence is helping us find answers in this episode. Paul is a leadership consultant, coach, researcher, and author of many books and articles on leadership and coaching.
Key Aspects and Statements
[05:12] Leaders often think there are things they control and others they can’t. What often gets forgotten is the bit in the middle: what we can influence. That’s the real domain of leadership in a complex world where you can’t control results.
[7:14] There are five ways of thinking about systems and about change.
[13:13 ] In the first three ways (linear and non-linear systemic, collaborative systemic), we imply that we are standing outside our organisation, we can diagnose things somehow, and then we'll work out what we need to do. We believe we can control things.
[15:42] In a complex system, however, a leader can't stand outside the organisation. They are part of the system. So, when I, as a leader, put something out there, other people will make sense of what I am saying in their own way. As a result, something quite unexpected may emerge; what the leader wanted and intended didn't happen. In other words, you don't get to control outcomes in a complex system.
What I can do as a leader is to get genuinely curious, get out into the organisation and explore what people are thinking and saying.
[28:14] In research about successful change in organisations, we found one word that stood out: dialogue. Dialogue is a way of engaging people in conversation. Dialogue requires leaders to get out there genuinely curious, to find out what people are saying, how they're thinking, how they're behaving. Leaders need to suspend judgment and be open to the possibility that what emerges from all those conversations might be different from what they expected.
[36:25] The way we think does change; it evolves through that social process of conversation and interaction. And that’s why it’s so important that we challenge how they think about systems and change.
Reflection Questions:
- How can I influence? How might influence happen in unexpected ways? and How can I be personally more at ease with my limitations of influence?
- How can I as a leader be more curious and open to learn from those I wish to influence, not from a point of control but from a point of influence - when it's about them, not about me?
- How do I think about change and how does that sharpen the way that I lead?
Dr. Paul Lawrence's contact details are on his website, and you can find all his books and articles here.
More info about us and our work is also on our website: secondcrackleadership.com.
Do you have any questions, feedback, or suggestions for us? Would you like to explore how we can help you to drive results in your organisations through a company-wide initiative or individual executive coaching? Then email us: hello at secondcrackleadership dot com.
To connect with us on LinkedIn:
Martin AldergårdGerrit Pelzer
Previous Episode

Looking Back to Move Forward — How to Make the Most of the New Year
The end of the year is always an excellent opportunity to slow down, reflect, and set the course for the New Year.
Reflection helps us get clarity and new insights. Often, that's all we need to take the right actions. But, reflection is also important to bring into awareness what's good already — something that often gets lost in our hectic daily lives.
So, why don't you set aside some time during the holidays period to reflect? You may want to use the questions below as guidance:
- How has the year been for you?
- What went well? What have you accomplished?
- What have you learned?
- What can you be grateful for?
- When you look back at how you have spent your time and energy this year, how well has this been aligned with your true life priorities?
- How clear are you actually about what your life's priorities are?
- What constitutes a meaningful and fulfilling life for you? What do you need to do to avoid regrets on your deathbed?
- And based on all this, what do you want to continue doing next year, and what do you need to do differently?
- How will you ensure you will act on this so that it does not remain just wishful thinking?
To make change stick, you may want to start each day by setting an intention that is aligned with the direction you want to take in life. Initially, you may need regular reminders, e.g., an alarm on your phone. Daily evening reflection on how your day went is also beneficial. It is also good to have a buddy or, of course, an executive coach to help you make the necessary changes.
More info about us and our work is also on our website: secondcrackleadership.com
Do you have any questions, feedback, or suggestions for us? Would you like to explore how executive coaching can support you in making the most of the New Year? Or would you like to discuss with us how we can support you in transforming your organisation? Then email us: hello at secondcrackleadership dot com
Or connect with us on LinkedIn:
Martin AldergårdGerrit Pelzer
References:
[19:07] Documentary on human trafficking: “The Deal” (English) or “Verhängnisvolle Versprechen” (German) by Chiara Sambuchi
[33:19] Kai Romhardt: Netzwerk Achtsame Wirtschaft, and the Mindful Business Commitments in English
[33:46] "A Culture of Happiness" by Tho Ha Vinh
[49:05] Poem by Thich Nhat Hanh from Present Moment, Wonderful Moment:
"The day is ending and our life is one day shorter.
Let us look carefully at what we have done.
Let us practice diligently, putting our whole heart into the path of meditation.
Let us live deeply each moment and in freedom, so the time doesn't slip away meaninglessly."
Next Episode

The Charms and Challenges of Leading Sustainability - with Anthony Watanabe
In this episode, we interview Anthony Watanabe, Chief Sustainability Officer of Indorama Ventures, a 20-billion dollar chemical company with 140 manufacturing sites worldwide and 26,000 employees. Anthony shares his experience of leading sustainable transformation at scale, and as we will see, there are both charms & challenges to the job.
Key moments
[05:00] How Anthony “wonderfully accidentally” discovered sustainability and started his 20+ year career in the field.
[10:00] Charms and challenges of leading sustainability. Including the “mainstreaming” of sustainable transformation and the increasing demands on transparency, reporting and disclosure.
[14:20] Leading sustainability in your daily role. The importance of starting with yourself as a leader and how well you are aligned and show up authentic. Continuing with leading through influence in the role of the CSO.
[20:03] What leaders can do to drive sustainability in their organisations. Sustainability needs all of us. It needs everybody's talents around the table because it’s complex, because it’s a systems approach.
[27:05] Balancing the visible with the meaningful. Using both narrative and stories and data to balance communication on visible (easy to communicate) actions with meaningful (impactful) actions. Only stories without quantifiable information is not a recipe for success. Linking into sustainable reporting.
[31:45] The dilemma of continued consumption and growth AND sustainability. Sharing examples of net positive impact and importance of circular economy.
[38:06] What drives sustainability to be “mainstream” on the corporate agenda? Examples are requirements of investors that are making ESG a priority, trends in technology around, e.g. renewable energy, electric vehicles, and social movements that bring diversity, equity and inclusion to the forefront.
Reflection Questions:
- How do I connect my personal values and beliefs to the mission of sustainable change? How does this connection help my motivation? How does it guide me? How does it help me to stay authentic as a leader?
- What can be new business models that look not only at financial performance? How can I use the collective intelligence of the people I work with? And who can be my guiding coalition to drive this?
- What could I do that is a meaningful contribution? Is there something with larger leverage based on my network, my skills, or access that could contribute to solutions for climate change?
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More info about us and our work is also on our website: secondcrackleadership.com.
Do you have any questions, feedback, or suggestions for us? Would you like to explore how we can help you to drive results in your organisations through a company-wide initiative or individual executive coaching? Then email us at [email protected].
To connect with us on LinkedIn:
Martin Aldergård
Gerrit Pelzer
Second Crack — The Leadership Podcast - Out of Control — How to Lead Through Uncertainty? With Dr. Paul Lawrence
Transcript
Second Crack – The Leadership Podcast
with guest Paul Lawrence (Episode 18)
This transcript is AI-generated and may contain typos and errors.
[00:11] Gerrit: A warm welcome to our first episode of Second Crack - The Leadership Podcast in 2023. So, a happy and healthy New Year to you. If you're new to our show, this is where we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and where we invite you as our listen
If you like this episode you’ll love
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