S4, Ep. 20: The Ten Commandments

05/04/23 • 39 min

Texas is taking matters into its own hands, going full-on cowboy as it leads the nation in abandoning long-held religious liberty protections. Amanda and Holly review a troubling bill in Texas that would mandate the posting of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms, and they share how some are trying to use the Kennedy v. Bremerton decision – and removal of the Lemon test – to justify this effort. They also review some surprising moments during a Texas Senate hearing on the bill, including when Baptists discover they have different understandings of their own theology. In the final segment, Amanda and Holly review the religious freedom problem with legislation like this and share ideas for engaging in conversation that can help reframe the issue.

SHOW NOTES: Segment 1 (starting at 00:41): Dueling over the Ten Commandments

Amanda and Holly discuss last year’s Supreme Court decision in Kennedy v. Bremerton on episode 21 of season 3.

Amanda and Holly talk about the Lemon test, from the 1971 decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman. They also mention the 1980 Stone v. Graham decision.

The proposal in Texas is Senate Bill 1515, and the text is available online.

Amanda and Holly mentioned this piece by Britt Luby for Baptist News Global: ‘Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife’ and other posters I do not want in a first grade classroom.

Read Amanda’s Tweet about this proposal in Texas.

Segment 2 (starting at 13:28): The Texas Senate hearing on this bill

You can listen to the Texas state Senate hearing on Senate Bill 1515 at this link. We played a clip of Tara Beulah, which appears at 27:13 in that video.

Former BJC Executive Director Brent Walker wrote this piece in 2005 debunking some of David Barton’s claims.

You can find resources on Christian nationalism on the website of our Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign.

Segment 3 (starting at 30:01): Engaging in conversation about the Ten Commandments

In 2005, the two Supreme Court cases dealing with the posting of the Ten Commandments in government settings were McCreary County v. ACLU and Van Orden v. Perry.

Read Holly’s preview column, which included ways to engage in conversation about the issue, on page 6 of this magazine: Supreme Court’s review of Ten Commandments cases an opportunity for education on religious liberty

After the cases concluded in 2005, Holly wrote this column: Making sense of the Ten Commandments cases

For more resources from BJC on religious displays, visit BJConline.org/religious-displays.

The Respecting Religion podcast was honored with two DeRose-Hinkhouse Awards from the Religion Communicators Council: Best in category for an individual episode, recognizing our episode on the Kennedy v. Bremerton decision, and an award of merit for season 4 of the podcast.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

SHOW NOTES: Segment 1 (starting at 00:41): Dueling over the Ten Commandments

Amanda and Holly discuss last year’s Supreme Court decision in Kennedy v. Bremerton on episode 21 of season 3.

Amanda and Holly talk about the Lemon test, from the 1971 decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman. They also mention the 1980 Stone v. Graham decision.

The proposal in Texas is Senate Bill 1515, and the text is available online.

Amanda and Holly mentioned this piece by Britt Luby for Baptist News Global: ‘Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife’ and other posters I do not want in a first grade classroom.

Read Amanda’s Tweet about this proposal in Texas.

Segment 2 (starting at 13:28): The Texas Senate hearing on this bill

You can listen to the Texas state Senate hearing on Senate Bill 1515 at this link. We played a clip of Tara Beulah, which appears at 27:13 in that video.

Former BJC Executive Director Brent Walker wrote this piece in 2005 debunking some of David Barton’s claims.

You can find resources on Christian nationalism on the website of our Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign.

Segment 3 (starting at 30:01): Engaging in conversation about the Ten Commandments

In 2005, the two Supreme Court cases dealing with the posting of the Ten Commandments in government settings were McCreary County v. ACLU and Van Orden v. Perry.

After the cases concluded in 2005, Holly wrote this column: Making sense of the Ten Commandments cases

For more resources from BJC on religious displays, visit BJConline.org/religious-displays.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

Previous Episode

S4, Ep. 19: Searching for common ground: SCOTUS hears Groff v. DeJoy

The Supreme Court seemed less divided by ideological lines during the Groff v. DeJoy oral arguments, as justices searched for common ground to clarify a standard from a 1977 decision that no advocate seems to be fully supporting. Amanda and Holly share their thoughts from the day, playing key moments from the courtroom in their breakdown of the legal issues and sticking points in the case. What, exactly, constitutes “undue hardship” when looking at the practical realities of the modern workplace and the strain that one worker’s need – religious or not – can cause on others?

Segment 1: Statutory stare decisis (starting at 00:47)

Learn more about Groff v. DeJoy on our website: BJConline.org/Groff, which includes a link to the brief BJC joined and Holly’s preview column.

Listen to our preview of the case in episode 17: Is ‘de minimis’ enough?

Holly mentioned this story from Nina Totenberg on NPR: Who bears the burden, and how much, when religious employees refuse Sabbath work?

Visit the Supreme Court’s website to listen to oral arguments in Groff v. DeJoy and read a transcript.

At the Supreme Court, Aaron Streett argued on behalf of the petitioner, Gerald Groff, and Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar argued on behalf of the United States Postal Service.

We played one clip from the oral arguments during this segment:

Justice Elena Kagan and Aaron Streett (this exchange takes place at 12:29 in the oral arguments)

Segment 2: A Court looking for common ground to clarify the law (starting at 14:14)

We played five clips from the oral arguments in this segment:

Justice Neil Gorsuch and Elizabeth Prelogar (this exchange takes place at 57:58 in the oral arguments)
Justice Elena Kagan and Aaron Street (from 31:26 in the arguments)
Justice Brett Kavanaugh and Aaron Street (from at 34:26 in the arguments)
Aaron Street responding to Justice Amy Coney Barrett (from 40:29 in the arguments)
Justice Brett Kavanaugh and Elizabeth Prelogar (from 1:35:11 in the arguments)

Segment 3: How will the Court fix this problem? (starting at 25:43)

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.

Next Episode

S4, Ep. 21: 613 Commandments: James Talarico on his defense of church-state separation as a Christian

The Texas legislature meets once every two years, and they are spending a great deal of this session on bills that would advance religion. We return to our conversation on the Ten Commandments bill in Texas, as we saw a groundswell of opposition to the bill when it headed to the state House. Amanda and Holly take a look at some viral moments, and we share an exclusive conversation with Texas state Rep. James Talarico, who spoke in opposition to this bill as a lawmaker, a former schoolteacher, and a Christian.

SHOW NOTES: Segment 1 (starting at 00:38): Why are we still talking about this?

Last week’s program on the Ten Commandments bill in Texas (Senate Bill 1515) is episode 20 of season 4. You can listen to it on our website.

We played the viral video of state Rep. James Talarico questioning the author of the bill. You can watch it on Twitter.

An advocate in Waco put together this petition opposing SB 1515, available for Texans who oppose the bill as people of faith to sign.

Segment 2 (starting at 12:39): A conversation with Texas state Rep. James Talarico

You can see video clips of the interview with Amanda and Texas state Rep. James Talarico in a Twitter thread she posted. It is also available on YouTube and on a reel posted by the @endchristiannationalism Instagram account.

Segment 3 (starting at 27:32): Putting this discussion into focus

For additional resources on the various ways religions interpret and list the commandments, a chart from New World Encyclopedia shows how different traditions order them. You can see a list of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) here. Visit this website for a side-by-side comparison of the Ten Commandments as listed in Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 20.

We played a clip of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg questioning Paul Clement in 2005 during oral arguments in the Van Orden v. Perry case. You can listen to the full argument here, and the clip we played is from 51:24 in the audio recording of the argument.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. You can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.