The Origins, Nature, and Content of the Right to Property: Five Economic Solitudes - February 15th, 2012

03/14/25 • 24 min

Dr. Glenn Fox and Dr. Brady Deaton discuss Glenn's longstanding interest in property rights and his recent publication in the Canadian Journal of Agricultural Economics.

Transcript

Dr. Brady Deaton: Welcome to FARE Talk, where we set out to provide enduring discussions on contemporary topics relevant to our economy with particular emphasis on food, agriculture, and the environment. My name is Brady Deaton, Jr., of the Department of Food, Agriculture, and Resource Economics at The University of Guelph. I'll be your host. Today, Dr. Glen Fox and I will be discussing his long-standing interest and research on property rights. Glen is an agricultural economist at the University of Guelph. He was recently honored as a fellow of the Canadian Agriculture Economic Society and his fellow address, recently published in the Canadian Journal of Agriculture Economics. This address will be linked to this podcast. Glen, welcome to FARE Talk.

Dr. Glenn Fox: Thanks Brady.

Brady: In your paper, you point out the many long-standing controversies in agriculture and natural resource policies are really debates about the nature of property rights. That's the issue that I want to tackle in today's podcast, but before I do, I wonder if there's some kind of story or anecdote that you can give that kind of sets the stage for our listeners.

Glenn: I started working on this topic about 20 years ago, actually, Brady, with one of my master's students named Mike Ivy. And Mike and I were interested in a topic which had become sort of visible or had emerged in importance in the late 1980s, in the early 1990s on the question of when or under what circumstances does a regulation become so costly or so burdensome to a landowner to become the equivalent of a taking, to become tantamount to expropriation.

And so we started to read legal literature, economic literature, read some case law, and we very quickly were confronted with a paradox. And the paradox was that most of the literature, whether or it was being written by economists or by lawyers or by political scientists or ethicists, dealt with a small number of cases typically that had gone to the U.S. Supreme Court.

They used apparently the same words and concepts, but when they got to the punchline, this critical question, does regulation constitute a taking, the answers were all over the map. And we had a great deal of difficulty figuring out why when there's only so many cases and they appear to all be using the same words, that the interpretations or the conclusions could be so divergent.

And after staring at this for a while, we realized that there was something else behind the scenes. And the something else behind the scenes was that each of the authors was invoking a different theory of property rights. And initially we identified three different theories of property rights. Subsequently, we've refined that and now have a list of five theories of property rights that I think exist in work that economists do, but also that legal theorists do.

And the five are: classical liberalism, pragmatism, utilitarianism, legal positivism, and then modern libertarianism.

Brady: Now in the regulatory [inaudible 00:03:10] situations in the United States there's this reference to the Constitution. So, the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution. In the Canadian context, is there something like the Fifth Amendment there?

Glenn: That's a good point. The reason that this word "takings" came up, the reason it's in this literature is because of the one clause referred to as the "takings" clause in the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. There is no equivalent to a "takings" clause in Canadian constitutional law. There is another paradox and this is still something that puzzles me today and I don't have a good answer to this is that while there is a "takings" clause in the U.S., there is not a "takings" clause in Canadian constitutional law. The practice has generally been in Canada, when regulations have been found to be excessively burdensome that property owners were compensated whereas the practice in the United States under "takings" clause has been generally that property owners have not been compensated when they've subject to certain types of regulations. So that's a bit of a mystery to me, but -

Brady: I mean I think one of the [00:04:18] in our area, one of the things you hear referenced a lot is this Crow rate subsidy. And that's an example of where farmers or landowners were ultimately compensated for the fact that their guarantee of basically lower shipping rates was taken away by an act. Is that something that comes up in your understanding of this topic and kind of contrasting the U.S. situation with Canada?

Glenn: I think that's a related development, but it's really somewhat different from the regulatory takings. In the case of the Crow rate, which were these grain transportation subsidies...

Dr. Glenn Fox and Dr. Brady Deaton discuss Glenn's longstanding interest in property rights and his recent publication in the Canadian Journal of Agricultural Economics.

Transcript

Dr. Glenn Fox: Thanks Brady.

And the five are: classical liberalism, pragmatism, utilitarianism, legal positivism, and then modern libertarianism.

Glenn: I think that's a related development, but it's really somewhat different from the regulatory takings. In the case of the Crow rate, which were these grain transportation subsidies...

Previous Episode

Farm Succession Planning: Reflections and Suggestions - May 11th, 2012

Jennifer Stevenson and Dr. Brady Deaton discuss farm succession planning. Jennifer is the Business Finance Program Lead with the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture Food and Rural Affairs (OMAFRA).

Transcript

Brady Deaton Jr.: Welcome to FARE Talk, where we set out to provide enduring discussions on contemporary topics relevant to our economy with particular emphasis on food, agriculture, and the environment. My name is Brady Deaton, Jr. of The Department of Food, Agriculture, and Resource Economics at The University of Guelph. I'll be your host. My guest today is Jennifer Stevenson, she works for The Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food, and Rural Affairs as The Business Finance Program Lead. She is very involved in supporting farm tax and business seminars, as well as ongoing efforts to enhance the capacity of farmers to develop succession plans. Jennifer, welcome to FARE Talk.

Jennifer S.: Thank you.

Brady: I recently heard you speak in Fergus about succession planning, particularly as it relates to the agriculture sector, and it was really interesting to me. I hadn't read that much research on it, but I was aware of the issue, and I was hoping that we could explore that in today's conversation. So, just to kind of get the ball rolling, talk to me a little bit about your role with the ministry in looking at succession planning?

Jennifer: Actually it's a recent role that I've taken on, as one of my colleagues went to a different role. But what I'm seeing in talking with producers and producer groups, is that succession planning is definitely top of mind. There's a lot of concerns, and there's concerns most on the technical side, because there's obviously some tax implications, but also on the human dynamics side.

A lot of people have, shall we say, a reluctance to talk about the human dynamics problem. So what I try to do is demystify that, bring it right out on the table, let's talk about it, and having them recognize that they all really share the same kind of problems, and also to find some solutions, maybe sometimes some out of the box solutions, to those problems.

Brady: Breaking down this whole idea of succession planning, when I hear it talked about and when you talked about it, there always seems to be two kind of components to it. The succession planning, which is about the business of farming, and passing that to the next generation, and the estate planning. Are those important or what do I need to understand about those two?

Jennifer: Yeah. I don't know if you remember when I actually gave that seminar, but one of the things I said right off the top is you've got to separate wealth from income, because the thing about farming is that most farmers actually live where they work. So, their wealth is actually tied up into their business, as well as their home, and a lot of that wealth has been accumulated on what I call an emotional basis. Meaning, that's where you've raised your kids, that's home, that's comfort.

So, what you have to do is be able to separate the business assets from those emotional or home type assets. Look at what's really generating income, as opposed to what's accumulating wealth over the course of the business? If you take a look at farm wealth in particular, I mean let's be honest here, we'll talk about land assets. They have tended to appreciate to a higher degree than has the S&P 500. So, there's been a fair accumulation of assets within the agricultural community.

So, you're talking about a substantial amount of wealth that's been accumulated, so when you're looking at the next generation coming in, you have to ask the question, "Are they ready to take over the wealth? Are they capable? Are they able to get financial backing?" Let's say from a traditional source, let's say from a financial institution like a bank or whatever. If they're not, what do you do? Are you able just to gift it? Or, do you have to look at some other scenarios? I think that's the big problem out there.

Brady: Right. So, I mean, and then that probably gets into the emotional sensitivity. If you think about a farmer thinking about a succession plan, but also thinking about how they're going to deal with their estate, or bequest their estate, and they're looking at land as you mentioned, as one of the big, if not the biggest item, they're often dealing with children that are both active potentially on the farm operation, but then often times a lot of children that aren't on the farm.

Jennifer: Well also, what you're talking about is protecting assets, because we take a look at the divorce rate of being 50%, they're also looking at protecting assets from divorce. I mean, let's be honest. If you've built up this emotional capital that you've put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in over the years, it's really hard to envision that this is going to come apart.

So, you're absolutely right. There's a lot of i...

Next Episode

The Canadian Wheat Board (CWB): Assessing the future of wheat marketing in Canada. - October 20th, 2011

Dr. Murray Fulton and Dr. Brady Deaton discuss the Canadian Wheat Board (CWB)

Transcript

Brady Deaton: Welcome to FARE Talk where we set out to provide enduring discussions on contemporary topics relevant to our economy with particular emphasis on food, agriculture and the environment. My name is Brady Deaton Jr. Of the Department of Food, Agriculture and Resource Economics at the University of Guelph. I'll be your host.

Today, Dr. Murray Fulton and I will be discussing what's going on with the Canadian Wheat Board. Murray is an agricultural economist and a professor in the Johnson-Shoyama Graduate School of Public Policy at the university of Saskatchewan. He has a long interest in Agricultural policy and in marketing systems. He is the co-author of a report by the Economic Council of Canada titled, Canadian Agricultural Policy and Prairie Agriculture, and has extensively studied the structure and behavior of the agricultural marketing systems.

Murray, thanks for being with us.

Murray Fulton: Oh it's a real pleasure.

Brady: Murray, what's going on. How do we start this. How do we start to understand what's going on with the Canadian Wheat Board. Keep in mind there'll be people tuning in who aren't aware of the current situation.

Murray: Good starting point Brady. Here's what's going on. What we're seeing in Canada over this next year, I mean, by next summer, we will have in place in Canada a completely different marketing system for wheat and that includes Durum and Barley for human consumption, malt and barley.

When I say a completely different system, I mean that in the strongest sense. What is happening is the replacement of a marketing system that, while it's evolved in some considerable ways, has retained the major fundamental structure that it acquired back in the 1930s and the 1940s. That's a mixture of an administrative and market system with Canadian Wheat Board playing a key role in that grain handling and transportation system for those grains, wheat and barley, in Western Canada.

What we're going to have by next July is some kind of much more market oriented system without the Wheat Board, at least without the Wheat Board as a compulsory marketing agency, which has been the case since the 1930s. There is still a question, I'll come to this at some point about whether or not a voluntary Wheat Board might be in place. But regardless of that central role, that the Canadian Wheat Board was playing, will no longer exist.

There is considerable discussion going on by farm organizations, the industry participants, these are the railways, the elevator companies, the millers, as to exactly what kind of rules are going to be put in place come next July and August.

Brady: All right. One of the terms that's often used this Single Desk Selling Authority. My understanding is that that ensures that the Canadian Wheat Board can basically purchase all of the wheat and barley for export or human consumption. Is that for all of Canada or just particular provinces.

Murray: The Wheat board only applies to the Western wheat growing area. This includes the grain growing areas in [inaudible 00:03:40] Saskatchewan, and Alberta and up into the Peace River area as well. Wheat growing in Ontario does not for instance, does not come under the auspices of the Canadian Wheat Board.

You're right the term that is used is the Single Desk Selling. This is actually key to that central role that the Canadian Wheat Board has been playing. Just very quickly what this Single Desk means is that all farmers in the [inaudible 00:04:14] Wheat Board area are required by legislation to deliver their wheat or durum or barley for human consumption to the Canadian Wheat Board. The Canadian Wheat Board then on behalf of the farmers then markets that grain, both domestically and internationally.

What the board then .... This is an additional element in its, it's not strictly connected with the Single Desk though it's grown up with it. What the Wheat Board has done for the most part then is take that grain, all the receipts from that grain that it sells and offers back to farmers a single pool price. All farmers, basis the export position get the same price. Regardless of whether the grain that the farmer delivered to the Canadian Wheat Board was sold in November at a particular price or in May at a different price or even sometime in the middle of July at perhaps at a third price, all farmers would get exactly the same price.

Now, what I need to say is that, that's adjusted, the price that an individual farmer will get will be adjusted for where that farmer is located in the grain growing region. The reason is that, off of that price that the Wheat Board provides, has to come the cost of grain transportation and grain handling. Depending upon where you are and the kinds of distance you are to port, or the degree of competition that the...