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Moving Home with Charlie - How bad could things get? A look at the worst case scenario: Homelessness and Death in poverty.

How bad could things get? A look at the worst case scenario: Homelessness and Death in poverty.

02/02/23 • 63 min

Moving Home with Charlie

Alex Groundwater is a good friend from early school days, one of the rare ones I have kept in touch with.
We sat down for a casual conversation on a serious topic. How bad could the economy get?
I am an optimistic and happy guy. But, this is not a cheery or positive episode. We actively debate what the worst case scenario might look like. If you find gloomy outlooks difficult, depressing or triggering in any way, I would suggest giving this episode a miss.
You can find him here on Twitter
https://twitter.com/alexgroundwater
The expression “Death in Poverty” came about in April 2020 due to concerns over long-term economic and health damage caused by Covid lockdowns which is now playing out as we watch ie. inflation, interest rates, house prices, 7.1M NHS waiting lists, public sector strikes etc
Two days after recording this video we fact-checked our own estimates and assumptions. We weren’t far off.
Here is what Alex sent me:
“We weren’t that far off with £400Bn - in 2021 Housing contribution to GDP was £360Bn
Of that - imputed rent ie. not real rent was £225Bn - which feels right to me - given the value of old people’s mortgage free homes ie. Magic made up rent was 225/360 - 63% of all of housing’s contribution to GDP.
The total GDP in 2021 was c. £2.2Tr - so total housing of £360Bn contributes 16.4%! We’re good at this!
Totally magic imputed therefore contributes 10.2%
We are therefore in EXACTLY the same position as the US in terms of using pretend rent and real rent to make it look like our economies are doing well. How can an asset that is not being produced - only lived in - be counted as domestic product worth over 16% of the economy?
It’s not like manufacturing cars and selling them domestically and abroad. More smoke and mirrors! Or... as this is GDP calculated from expenditure - like buying a new car or ACTUALLY paying rent... when your house is mortgage free.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/satelliteaccounts/datasets/consumertrendschainedvolumemeasureseasonallyadjusted
Here is an extract from a different ONS site (section 2):
“Owner-occupiers’ imputed rental is an estimate of the housing services consumed by households who are not actually renting their residence. It can be thought of as the amount that non-renters pay themselves for the housing services that they produce.
As such, imputed rental should represent the economic value per period to home owners of their dwellings, equivalent to if they were to rent out their properties. By definition, however, a homeowner does not receive payment on their property, and so the payment must be "imputed". ......I

Support the show

Follow me on X for daily updates: https://x.com/moving_charlie
Talk to my hand picked conveyancing partners here: https://mhwc.co.uk/conveyancing
Check out our national property listings on bestagent.co.uk if you're looking for a new home or need an agent to sell or let your existing home.
If you need a mortgage, talk to my hand picked, trusted mortgage team here: https://mhwc.co.uk/mortgage
All my other links: https://linktr.ee/movinghomewithcharlie
For my estate agency podcasts, visit https://linktr.ee/bestagent
If you're an estate agent, make sure you're getting your free telephone leads as well as viewing and vendor leads by joining https://bestagent.co.uk/agents

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Alex Groundwater is a good friend from early school days, one of the rare ones I have kept in touch with.
We sat down for a casual conversation on a serious topic. How bad could the economy get?
I am an optimistic and happy guy. But, this is not a cheery or positive episode. We actively debate what the worst case scenario might look like. If you find gloomy outlooks difficult, depressing or triggering in any way, I would suggest giving this episode a miss.
You can find him here on Twitter
https://twitter.com/alexgroundwater
The expression “Death in Poverty” came about in April 2020 due to concerns over long-term economic and health damage caused by Covid lockdowns which is now playing out as we watch ie. inflation, interest rates, house prices, 7.1M NHS waiting lists, public sector strikes etc
Two days after recording this video we fact-checked our own estimates and assumptions. We weren’t far off.
Here is what Alex sent me:
“We weren’t that far off with £400Bn - in 2021 Housing contribution to GDP was £360Bn
Of that - imputed rent ie. not real rent was £225Bn - which feels right to me - given the value of old people’s mortgage free homes ie. Magic made up rent was 225/360 - 63% of all of housing’s contribution to GDP.
The total GDP in 2021 was c. £2.2Tr - so total housing of £360Bn contributes 16.4%! We’re good at this!
Totally magic imputed therefore contributes 10.2%
We are therefore in EXACTLY the same position as the US in terms of using pretend rent and real rent to make it look like our economies are doing well. How can an asset that is not being produced - only lived in - be counted as domestic product worth over 16% of the economy?
It’s not like manufacturing cars and selling them domestically and abroad. More smoke and mirrors! Or... as this is GDP calculated from expenditure - like buying a new car or ACTUALLY paying rent... when your house is mortgage free.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/satelliteaccounts/datasets/consumertrendschainedvolumemeasureseasonallyadjusted
Here is an extract from a different ONS site (section 2):
“Owner-occupiers’ imputed rental is an estimate of the housing services consumed by households who are not actually renting their residence. It can be thought of as the amount that non-renters pay themselves for the housing services that they produce.
As such, imputed rental should represent the economic value per period to home owners of their dwellings, equivalent to if they were to rent out their properties. By definition, however, a homeowner does not receive payment on their property, and so the payment must be "imputed". ......I

Support the show

Follow me on X for daily updates: https://x.com/moving_charlie
Talk to my hand picked conveyancing partners here: https://mhwc.co.uk/conveyancing
Check out our national property listings on bestagent.co.uk if you're looking for a new home or need an agent to sell or let your existing home.
If you need a mortgage, talk to my hand picked, trusted mortgage team here: https://mhwc.co.uk/mortgage
All my other links: https://linktr.ee/movinghomewithcharlie
For my estate agency podcasts, visit https://linktr.ee/bestagent
If you're an estate agent, make sure you're getting your free telephone leads as well as viewing and vendor leads by joining https://bestagent.co.uk/agents

Previous Episode

undefined - "Welcome to 2025". A cautionary tale of middle-class impoverishment by Alex Groundwater

"Welcome to 2025". A cautionary tale of middle-class impoverishment by Alex Groundwater

Alex Groundwater is a good friend from early school days, one of the rare ones I have kept in touch with.
He describes himself as:
"A Gen-X data enthusiast. Helping Bio-Techs build labs and manufacturing facilities for T Cell cancer therapies. mAB 🐀, reader, maths literate!"
I often refer to him, not seriously, as my "quant guy" on YouTube videos.
He wrote this short story about the income destruction of an imaginary wealthy middle class couple living in London to demonstrate the potential effects of the current inflation and interest rate we have in the economic environment in early 2023.
You can find him here on Twitter
https://twitter.com/alexgroundwater
All my social links: https://linktr.ee/movinghomewithcharlie
Watch the video of this podcast here (although you can't see Alex in it!): https://youtu.be/-jfqG9Mqu34

Support the show

Follow me on X for daily updates: https://x.com/moving_charlie
Talk to my hand picked conveyancing partners here: https://mhwc.co.uk/conveyancing
Check out our national property listings on bestagent.co.uk if you're looking for a new home or need an agent to sell or let your existing home.
If you need a mortgage, talk to my hand picked, trusted mortgage team here: https://mhwc.co.uk/mortgage
All my other links: https://linktr.ee/movinghomewithcharlie
For my estate agency podcasts, visit https://linktr.ee/bestagent
If you're an estate agent, make sure you're getting your free telephone leads as well as viewing and vendor leads by joining https://bestagent.co.uk/agents

Next Episode

undefined - Base Rate Outlook for 2023/24. Is 4% the new normal?

Base Rate Outlook for 2023/24. Is 4% the new normal?

The Bank of England set the base rate 0.5% higher at 4% today. Is this the new normal? Or will they go much higher?
I had a 5 minute chat with my old friend and pundit Alex Groundwater to get his views on what's likely to happen with bank interest rates and why.
Alex Groundwater is a good friend from early school days, one of the rare ones I have kept in touch with.
He describes himself as:
"A Gen-X data enthusiast. Helping Bio-Techs build labs and manufacturing facilities for T Cell cancer therapies. mAB 🐀, reader, maths literate!"
I often refer to him, not seriously, as my "quant guy" on YouTube videos.
He wrote this short story about the income destruction of an imaginary wealthy middle class couple living in London to demonstrate the potential effects of the current inflation and interest rate we have in the economic environment in early 2023.
You can find him here on Twitter
https://twitter.com/alexgroundwater
All my social links: https://linktr.ee/movinghomewithcharlie

Support the show

Follow me on X for daily updates: https://x.com/moving_charlie
Talk to my hand picked conveyancing partners here: https://mhwc.co.uk/conveyancing
Check out our national property listings on bestagent.co.uk if you're looking for a new home or need an agent to sell or let your existing home.
If you need a mortgage, talk to my hand picked, trusted mortgage team here: https://mhwc.co.uk/mortgage
All my other links: https://linktr.ee/movinghomewithcharlie
For my estate agency podcasts, visit https://linktr.ee/bestagent
If you're an estate agent, make sure you're getting your free telephone leads as well as viewing and vendor leads by joining https://bestagent.co.uk/agents

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