Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast)

05/16/24 • 95 min

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Jag Duggal is chief product officer at Nubank, a decacorn neobank founded in Brazil. It’s valued at over $30 billion, is bigger than Coinbase, Robinhood, Affirm, and SoFi combined, has 100 million customers (more than Bank of America!) while only operating in three countries in Latin America, and 80% to 90% of its growth comes through word of mouth. Prior to Nubank, Jag was a director of product management at Facebook, a senior vice president at Quantcast, and a product leader at Google. In our conversation, we discuss:

• How Nubank builds a fanatical user base

• Tactics for driving word-of-mouth growth

• Measuring customer love through the Sean Ellis score

• The importance of strategic clarity

• The role of category design in creating successful products

• Why companies should strive to be “fundamentally different,” not “incrementally better”

• Nubank’s vision for an AI-powered banking future

—

Brought to you by:

• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

• Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank

• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/be-fundamentally-different-jag-duggal

—

Where to find Jag Duggal:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jagduggal/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Jag’s background

(04:34) Nubank’s remarkable achievements

(06:01) Nubank’s product development process

(11:23) Nubank’s values

(12:16) Building products people love fanatically

(15:21) The Sean Ellis score

(21:27) An example project using the Sean Ellis score

(25:07) Picking up the phone and calling customers

(28:20) The importance of starting small and iterating

(30:42) Pushing back effectively

(34:10) Uncovering pain points through customer research

(37:53) An example of setting a clear hypothesis

(42:01) Developing a strategy

(52:16) “Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better”

(53:10) Category design

(57:37) Nubank’s founding story and goals for the future

(01:00:46) Advice for adding new product lines

(01:03:46) The future of fintech and banking

(01:09:23) AI corner

(01:12:34) Failure corner

(01:20:24) Key takeaways

(01:22:11) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Nubank: https://nubank.com.br/en/

• Coinbase: https://www.coinbase.com/

• Robinhood: https://www.robinhood.com/

• SoFi: https://www.sofi.com/

• Affirm: https://www.affirm.com/

• Lemonade: https://www.lemfi.com/

• Bank of America: https://www.bankofamerica.com/

• Nubank achieves a world record with more than 7 million people participating in NuBolão in one month: https://building.nubank.com.br/nubank-achieves-world-record-with-nubolao

• Nu México carries out first financial transaction 20 meters under the depth of the sea: https://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/nu-mexico-carries-out-first-financial-transaction-20-meters-under-the-depth-of-the-sea

• David Vélez on LinkedIn:

• How Nubank builds a fanatical user base

• Tactics for driving word-of-mouth growth

• Measuring customer love through the Sean Ellis score

• The importance of strategic clarity

• The role of category design in creating successful products

• Why companies should strive to be “fundamentally different,” not “incrementally better”

• Nubank’s vision for an AI-powered banking future

—

Brought to you by:

• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

• Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank

• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/be-fundamentally-different-jag-duggal

—

Where to find Jag Duggal:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jagduggal/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Jag’s background

(04:34) Nubank’s remarkable achievements

(06:01) Nubank’s product development process

(11:23) Nubank’s values

(12:16) Building products people love fanatically

(15:21) The Sean Ellis score

(21:27) An example project using the Sean Ellis score

(25:07) Picking up the phone and calling customers

(28:20) The importance of starting small and iterating

(30:42) Pushing back effectively

(34:10) Uncovering pain points through customer research

(37:53) An example of setting a clear hypothesis

(42:01) Developing a strategy

(52:16) “Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better”

(53:10) Category design

(57:37) Nubank’s founding story and goals for the future

(01:00:46) Advice for adding new product lines

(01:03:46) The future of fintech and banking

(01:09:23) AI corner

(01:12:34) Failure corner

(01:20:24) Key takeaways

(01:22:11) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Nubank: https://nubank.com.br/en/

• Coinbase: https://www.coinbase.com/

• Robinhood: https://www.robinhood.com/

• SoFi: https://www.sofi.com/

• Affirm: https://www.affirm.com/

• Lemonade: https://www.lemfi.com/

• Bank of America: https://www.bankofamerica.com/

• Nubank achieves a world record with more than 7 million people participating in NuBolão in one month: https://building.nubank.com.br/nubank-achieves-world-record-with-nubolao

• David Vélez on LinkedIn:

Previous Episode

A framework for PM skill development | Vikrama Dhiman (Gojek)

Vikrama Dhiman heads all things product at Gojek, including product management, design, program management, and research, across Indonesia, Singapore and India. He has over 16 years of experience building internet products, consults with Fortune 500 companies, and is among the most well-known and respected product leaders in all of Asia. In our conversation, we discuss:

• The most common traits among successful product managers

• The 3 W’s framework for PM career growth

• The Four A’s of leveling up in product management

• The right way to push back as a PM

• Common pitfalls that stall PM careers

• Vikrama’s advice for transitioning into product management

• Why intent alone is not enough

—

Brought to you by:

• Uizard—AI-powered prototyping for visionary product leaders

• Webflow—The web experience platform

• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-framework-for-pm-skill-development

—

Where to find Vikrama Dhiman:

• X: https://twitter.com/vikramadhiman

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vikrama/

• Website: https://www.vikramadhiman.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Vikrama’s background

(03:56) Three common traits among great PMs

(07:09) The first W: What you produce

(15:40) The second W: What you bring to the table

(18:58) The third W: What’s your operating model?

(20:36) Three traits that make you a great PM to work with

(21:49) How to improve the quality and quantity of your outputs

(23:26) The art of the pushback

(26:55) Common factors that impede career growth

(33:39) Vikrama’s personal reflections

(39:33) Choosing which skill(s) to focus on developing

(46:28) The ambiguity of the PM role

(51:47) The 8 axis for PM growth

(56:57) Contrarian corner: Why intent alone is not enough

(59:30) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Taxi mafias, cash vaults, and 100% MoM growth: The story behind Southeast Asia’s biggest startup | Kevin Aluwi (Gojek): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/taxi-mafias-cash-vaults-and-100-mom

• How to scrappily hire for, measure, and unlock growth | Crystal Widjaja, Gojek and Kumu: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-hire-for-measure-and-unlock

• Gojek: https://www.gojek.com/en-id

• SQL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL

• Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/

• Crystal Widjaja on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystalwidjaja

• Raditya Wibowo: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raditya-wibowo-a0845436/?originalSubdomain=id

• Sidu Ponnappa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sidup

• Leveraging mentors to uplevel your career | Jules Walter (YouTube, Slack): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/leveraging-mentors-to-uplevel-your

• Ke...

Next Episode

Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack)

Kenneth Berger coaches startup leaders on how to prevent burnout, advocate for their desired lifestyle, and make a meaningful impact on the world. He’s spent more than 20 years in the tech industry, is a former founder backed by top investors, and was the first product manager at Slack. Kenneth’s core mission is to help startup leaders change the world by learning to ask for what they want, living with integrity, and building genuine relationships even with the people they find most challenging. Currently he is writing a book, Ask for What You Want, in which he aims to share his actionable strategies for creating change in the world. In our conversation, we explore:

• Why asking for what you want is so impactful

• Three steps to effectively ask for what you want

• Challenges that arise when people struggle to ask for what they want

• Why hearing “no” is a normal part of the process

• The “dream behind the complaint” technique for uncovering desires

• Kenneth’s experience of being fired three times from Slack

• How embracing fear and discomfort is key to getting what you want

• Why discipline is overrated

—

Brought to you by:

• Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers

• Webflow—The web experience platform

• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ask-for-what-you-want-kenneth-berger

—

Where to find Kenneth Berger:

• X: https://twitter.com/kberger

• Threads: https://www.threads.net/@kberger

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kberger/

• Website: https://kberger.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Kenneth’s background

(04:31) The importance of asking for what you want

(06:36) Challenges that arise when people struggle to ask for what they want

(08:09) A personal example of failing to ask for what you want

(09:17) Signs this is a skill you need to work on

(10:49) How to get better at knowing what you want

(15:28) Why hearing “no” is a normal part of the process

(17:29) Getting a “yes” vs. a “hell yes”

(19:20) Step 1: Articulate what you want

(24:07) Doing an integrity check

(26:56) Step 2: Ask for what you want intentionally

(30:45) Understanding your influence

(34:48) Using complaints as inspiration

(36:24) Internal family systems

(38:00) Giving feedback

(41:24) Step 3: Accept the response

(45:22) Kenneth’s experience of being fired three times from Slack

(57:30) Advice on being the first PM at a company or startup

(01:04:58) Contrarian corner: anti-discipline

(01:05:52) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Joining as the first product manager: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/joining-as-the-first-product-manager

• Internal Family Systems: https://ifs-institute.com/

• How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford GSB professor, “Touchy Feely”): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin

• Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/

• The Thre...