Law and the Future of War
Asia-Pacific Institute for Law and Security
Through conversation with experts in technology, law and military affairs, this series explores how new military technology and international law interact. Edited and produced by Dr Lauren Sanders and Dr Simon McKenzie, the podcast is published by the Asia-Pacific Institute for Law and Security. Until July 2024, the podcast was published by the University of Queensland School of Law.
Note: the views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other organisation (such as Government, or Departments of Defence), unless the speaker specifically attributes their comments to that organisation.
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Top 10 Law and the Future of War Episodes
Goodpods has curated a list of the 10 best Law and the Future of War episodes, ranked by the number of listens and likes each episode have garnered from our listeners. If you are listening to Law and the Future of War for the first time, there's no better place to start than with one of these standout episodes. If you are a fan of the show, vote for your favorite Law and the Future of War episode by adding your comments to the episode page.
Operational, Political and Legal Implications of AUKUS - David Nicholls, Matt McDonald and Monique Cormier
Law and the Future of War
10/13/21 • 54 min
In this live recording of an event, Rain Liivoja talks with David Nicholls, Matt McDonald and Monique Cormier about the new AUKUS arrangement, under which Australia would acquire 8 nuclear-powered submarines with US and UK technology. They discuss the extent to which it represents a major shift in Australia's defence policy, and what we can make of some of the claims made about it.
David Nicholls is the Executive Director of the Submarine Institute of Australia. A former submarine commander in the Royal Australian Navy, he now works as a defence industry consultant.
Dr Matt McDonald is an Associate Professor in The University of Queensland's School of Political Science and International Studies. His research focuses on critical theoretical approaches to security and their application to issues such as Australian foreign and security policy, and Asia-Pacific security dynamics.
Dr Monique Cormier is a Senior Lecturer in the University of New England's School of Law. Her research covers international criminal law, and legal issues relating to nuclear disarmament and extended nuclear deterrence.
The Geneva Conventions in History - Helen Kinsella and Giovanni Mantilla
Law and the Future of War
01/01/25 • 57 min
In this episode, Simon speaks to Professor Helen Kinsella and Associate Professor Giovanni Mantilla, two leading experts on the history and formation of the Geneva Conventions and IHL more generally. They discuss the negotiations leading up the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol, exploring some of the political tensions that sits behind the provisions of these key legal texts. This includes how the law treats non-state actors and non-international armed conflict, as well who gets the right to wage war.
Helen Kinsella is a Professor of Political Science and Law at the University of Minnesota. Her research focuses on the theorization of gender and armed conflict and she is currently working on a book on sleep in war and another on the histories of the laws of war through the United States' wars against Native peoples. She is the author of The Image before the Weapon (Cornell University Press, 2011), which won the 2012 Sussex International Theory Prize. Helen has a PhD in Political Science and an MA in Public Policy from the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, and a BA in Political Science and Gender Studies from Bryn Mawr College.
Giovanni Mantilla is an Associate Professor in the Department of Politics and International Studies at Cambridge University, Fellow of Christ’s College, and Fellow of the Lauterpacht Centre for International Law. His research focusses on the operation of multilateralism, particularly practices of social pressure and pressure management in diplomacy, global governance, and international legal processes. His book Lawmaking under Pressure: International Humanitarian Law and Internal Armed Conflict (Cornell University Press, 2020) received the 2021 Francis Lieber award.
Additional Resources
- Helen M Kinsella and Giovanni Mantilla, 'Contestation before Compliance: History, Politics, and Power in International Humanitarian Law' (2020) 64(3) International Studies Quarterly 649.
- Helen Kinsella, 'Settler Empire and the United States: Francis Lieber on the Laws of War' (2023) 117(2) American Political Science Review 629.
- Vasuki Nesiah, International Conflict Feminism: Theory, Practice, Challenges (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2024)
- Thomas Gregory, Weaponizing Civilian Protection (Oxford University Press, 2025)
- Tom Dannenbaum, 'Siege Starvation: A War Crime of Societal Torture' (2021) 22(2) Chicago Journal of International Law 368.
- Boyd Van Dijk, Preparing for War: The Making of the Geneva Conventions (Oxford University Press, 2022)
- Craig Jones, The War Lawyers: The United States, Israel and Juridical Warfare (Oxford University Press, 2020)
- Janina Dill, Legitimate Targets? Social Construction, International Law and US Bombing (Cambridge University Press, 2014)
What space law can tell us about international law - Cris van Eijk
Law and the Future of War
10/27/21 • 38 min
In this episode, Dr Simon McKenzie chats with Cris van Eijk about space law – including some of its fundamental documents and places of political contestation - and what the structure and focus of space law tells us about international law more generally. After a few decades on the outer, space law is back in vogue: the rise of commercial space ventures combined with an uptick in geopolitical tension about the use of space makes it particularly important for us to think about if and how it is regulated by law.
Cris van Eijk is an international lawyer and is currently researching outer space law from environmental, historical, and decolonial perspectives. He is currently part of the Working Group on International Law of the International Astronomical Union's Dark and Quiet Skies Conference, as well as Legal Advisor at Jus Ad Astra, where he analyses environmental rights in orbit. He holds a BA in International Justice and an LLM in Public International Law from Leiden University and is in the final stages of a graduate-entry law degree at the University of Cambridge.
Further reading:
- Cris van Eijk, ‘Unstealing the Sky: Third World Equity in the Orbital Commons’
- Cris van Eijk and Timiebi Aganaba-Jeanty, ‘Inspired by Africa: A New Approach to Global Space Governance’
- Cassandra Steer and Matthew Hersch (eds), War and Peace in Outer Space: Law, Policy, and Ethics
- Joshua Fitzmaurice and Stacey Henderson, ‘On the Legality of Mars Colonisation’
- Surabhi Ranganathan, ‘Ocean Floor Grab: International Law and the Making of an Extractive Imaginary’
- Surabhi Ranganathan, ‘The Common Heritage of Mankind: Annotations on a Battle’,
- Cair Storr, 'Space Is the Only Way to Go: On the Evolution of the Extractivist Imaginary of International Law’,
- Elena Cirkovic, ‘The Next Generation of International Law: Space, Ice, and the Cosmolegal Proposal’
- Natalie Treviño, ‘The Cosmos Is Not Finished’ (PhD, Western University 2020)
- Timiebi Aganaba-Jeanty, ‘Space Sustainability and the Freedom of Outer Space’
- Fabio Tronchetti, ‘Legal Aspects of the Military Uses of Outer Space’, Handbook of Space Law
- Tanja Masson-Zwaan and Mahulena Hofmann, Introd
Dr Who and Genocide - Shannon Zimmerman
Law and the Future of War
01/25/23 • 33 min
In this episode of our IHL and entertainment series, Dr Lauren Sanders speaks with Dr Shannon Zimmerman about Dr Who and his crimes of genocide.
Talking about the examples of genocide by Dr Who throughout the series, this interview discussed Dr Zimmerman's paper, 'Doctor Who and the Responsibility to Protect: Public Perspectives of Atrocity Crimes', which canvasses the depiction of genocide in this science fiction series, and how the language and treatment of this international crime in the TV show changes along with real-life events over the course of the series' history; and the use of science fiction as thought experiments in the study of political science.
Dr Zimmerman is a Lecturer in Strategic Studies at Deakin University at the Australian War College and Research Fellow at the Asia-Pacific Centre for the Responsibility to Protect at UQ. Her research focuses on norm implementation in United Nations peacekeeping missions, specifically Protection of Civilians (PoC) and counter terrorism in peacekeeping operations. She also studies misogyny motivated terrorism, land the emergency of the involuntary celibates or 'incels'. Shannon received her PhD from the University of Queensland in 2019 and her Masters in Conflict Resolution from Georgetown University in 2012.
Special thanks to Rosie Cavdarski for editing.
Additional resources:
- Zimmerman, S, 'Doctor Who and the Responsibility to Protect: Public Perspectives of Atrocity Crimes', The Journal of Popular Culture, 6 Nov 2022.
- To Boldly Go: Leadership, Strategy and Conflict in the 21st Century, Casemate Publishers, Sep 2021.
- Shepherd, L and Clapman, W, 'Lessons from Westerose: Gender and power in Game of Thrones', Politics, Vol 3, Iss 1, 2017.
- Drezner, D, Theories of International Politics and Zombies, Princeton University Press 2014.
- Australian Red Cross, Who is Game of Thrones' worst war criminal?
US DoD Civilian Harm and Mitigation Response Plan – what is it, and what does it propose to do? - Marc Garlasco
Law and the Future of War
09/07/22 • 46 min
On 25 Aug 2022, the US Department of Defense released its Civilian Harm and Mitigation Response Plan, which has been created, in part as a result of the public scrutiny on civilian casualty incidents following the Iraq campaign.
In this episode, Dr Lauren Sanders speaks with Marc Garlasco, who has been intimately involved with this issue, having been engaged in stakeholder engagement with the US DoD during their development of this plan when it was announced on 27 Jan 2022.
Marc has a long history of observing and reporting on civilian casualty incidents, using his understanding of the process garnered from his time as a a US intelligence analyst. He has served with HRW, as a senior civilian protection officer for United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA); and as the U.N. senior military advisor for the Human Rights Council's (HRC) Independent Commission of Inquiry on Libya, where he investigated civilian casualties while leading a survey of NATO's activities in Libya. He has worked with CNA on civilian harm mitigation, and co-hosts his own podcast, Civilian Protection with CIVIC.
He has been engaged in this Action Plan through his work with the NGO PAX since 2021 and will be talking to us today about the history of this Action Plan and his views on what it might do to address the causal issues identified across the numerous projects that have been analysing the contributing factors that result in civilian casualties.
Edited by Rosie Cavdarski.
Additional Resources
- Marco Garlasco, ‘Defense Department Finally Prioritizes Civilians in Conflict,’ Lawfare Blog (29 August 2022)
- Dan E. Stigall, Anna Williams, ‘An Improved Approach to Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response’ Articles of War Blog (Lieber Institute, Westpoint) (25 August 2022)
- RAND, U.S. Department of Defense Civilian Casualty Policies and Procedures An Independent Assessment (2022)
- See CivIC’s Report ‘In Search of Answers: U.S. Military Investigations and Civilian Harm’ (2020) and other publications on their website.
- Listen to 'The Civilian Protection Podcast' - PAX
- Applying the DoD Policy on Civilian Harm to Protection of Civilians in Large-Scale Combat Operations (LSCO) , NGO Recommendations for DoD Policy on Civilian Harm - InterAction
War Lawyers - Craig Jones
Law and the Future of War
05/04/22 • 53 min
Dr Craig Jones speaks to Dr Lauren Sanders about his book: War Lawyers, to discuss how some militaries provide legal advice during targeting operations. They talk about the history of operations law, & how this advice is dispensed as well as talking about some challenges & issues with this current model of lawyering.
Dr Craig Jones is the author of The War Lawyers & a lecturer in political geography in the School of Geography, Sociology, & Politics at Newcastle University. His research focuses on war and (para)military violence, conflict medicine & forced displacement, the geographies of international law & the contemporary Middle East and North Africa.
The War Lawyers: The United States, Israel and Juridical Warfare examines the involvement of military lawyers in aerial targeting operations carried out by the US military in Iraq & Afghanistan, & the Israeli military in Gaza & the West Bank. It draws on several years of fieldwork & over 50 interviews with US and Israeli military lawyers. It argues that international law has become part of the very fabric of later modern war and that US and Israeli military lawyers play a surprisingly crucial role in planning & executing a wide range of lethal & non-lethal military operations.
Craig also researches access to treatment for the sick and injured in a region where medical & healthcare infrastructures have been destroyed (often deliberately) by military and paramilitary violence. It focuses on three conflicts in the Middle East - Gaza, Syria & Iraq - & traces the systems of casualty evacuation and medical care that have emerged within & across borders in the region.
Additional resources:
Craig Jones - The War Lawyers: The United States, Israel and Juridical Warfare , (November 2020) OUP
US Army - Report of the Department of the Army Review of the Preliminary Investigations into the My Lai Incident (14 Mar 1970)
Samuel Moyne - Humane: How the United States Abandoned Peace and Reinvented War (July 2021) MacMillan
Azmat Khan, Sarak Almukhtar and Rachel Shorey - The Civilian Casualty Files (18 Dec 2021) The New York Times
Eric Liddick, No Legal Objection, Per Se (21 April 2021) War on the Rocks
Michael Barbaro and Azmat Khan, The Civilian Casualties of America's Air Wars (18 Jan 2022) The New York Time The Daily Podcast
Christiane Wilke - Implicated Violence: Socio-legal Approaches to International Humanitarian Law and International Criminal Law (Forthcoming, Jan 2022) London Review of International Law
Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini - Human Shields (August 2020) UC Press
Noura Erakat - Justice for Some: Law and the Question of Palestine (2019) Stanford University Press
Boyd Van Dijk - Preparing for War: The Making of the Geneva Conventions (2022) OUP
Samuel Moyne - Di
Educating the military through wargaming and computer games - Jo Brick
Law and the Future of War
03/23/22 • 34 min
In this episode, Dr Lauren Sanders speaks with Group Captain Jo Brick about the role of wargaming and technology in professional military education, and how computer games can be used to train military professionals in ethics and law.
Spoiler alert: they talk about Chidi from ‘The Good Place’ and the trolly problem, to highlight how the practical application of ethics is critical to creating good military decision makers. They traverse some of the challenges that technology creates in terms of desensitisation to violence, and the moral and ethical problems faced by people who conduct warfare by distance – such as drone operators - and how training and education can bridge that gap.
Group Captain Brick is a Legal Officer in the Royal Australian Air Force and currently the Chief of Staff at the Australian Defence College, Canberra. In addition to multiple operational deployments, she has previously been appointed as the Legal Advisor to the Chief of the Defence Force, and Legal Advisor to the Chief of Air Force, editor of The Strategy Bridge and The Central Blue, and is a Non-Resident Fellow of the Krulak Center, United States Marine Corps.
Further reading:
- ‘Kill the enemy, and don’t forget to buy milk on the way home – preparing for the ethical challenges of remote operations in ‘Forever Wars’, on The Forge
- Remote Warfare and the Erosion of the Military Profession | Joint Air Power Competence Centre (japcc.org)
- Reaper Force – Inside Britain’s Drone Wars, Peter Lee (Allen & Unwin, 2019)
- #BruteCast podcast: Military Ethics and Wargaming, Krulak Center for Innovation & Future Warfare
Metaphors and cyberspace - Julia Slupska
Law and the Future of War
03/17/21 • 42 min
In this episode, Dr Simon McKenzie talks with Julia Sluspka about how the metaphors we use to understand cyberspace impact on how we imagine it should be regulated. They discuss the ways in which the conceptualisation of cyberspace is contested. Is it like spatial territory? Are states engaged in cyber war? Or is it like an ecosystem, or infrastructure? The metaphor we adopt frames the problems we see and the solutions we arrive at.
Julia Slupska is a doctoral student at the Centre for Doctoral Training in Cybersecurity and the Oxford Internet Institute. Her research focuses on technologically-mediated abuse like image-based sexual abuse ('revenge porn') and stalking, as well as emotion, care and metaphors in cybersecurity.
Further reading
- Julia Slupska, 'War, Health and Ecosystem: Generative Metaphors in Cybersecurity Governance', Philosophy & Technology (2020).
- Julia Slupska, 'Safe at Home: Towards a Feminist Critique of Cybersecurity' in Whose Security is Cybersecurity? Authority, Responsibility and Power in Cyberspace (St. Anthony's International Review 2019 no. 15)
- George Lakoff & Mark Johnson, Metaphors We Live By (1980, University of Chicago Press).
- Dominik Lukeš, 'Hacking a metaphor in five steps', Metaphor Hacker (July 18 2010).
- Florian Eggloff, 'Cybersecurity and the Age of Privateering: A Historical Analogy', Cyber Studies Working Paper No. 1 (March 2015, University of Oxford)
- Donald Schön 'Generative metaphor: A perspective on problem-setting in social policy' in Ortony, A. (Ed.) Metaphor and Thought (1993, 2nd ed, Cambridge University Press).
- Mariarosaria Taddeo, 'On the Risks of Relying on Analogies to Understand Cyber Conflicts' (2016) 26 Minds and Machines 317-321.
- Cynthia Enloe, Bananas, Beaches and Bases: Making Feminist Sense of International Politics (2nd ed., 2014, University of California Press).
- Karen Levy and Bruce Schneier, 'Privacy threats in intimate relationships' 6(1) Journal of Cybersecurity (2020).
- Cornell Tech Univerisity Project on Computer Security and Privacy for Survivors of Intimate Partner Violence
- Katherine Miller, James Shires, Tatiana Tropina, Gender Approaches to Cybersecurity(2021, UNIDIR)
The role of the military defending cyber operations against critical infrastructure - Rhiannon Neilsen and Karine Pontbriand
Law and the Future of War
02/03/21 • 41 min
In this episode, Dr Simon McKenzie talks with Rhiannon Neilsen and Karine Pontbriand on the role of militaries in defending against cyber operations. They argue that the vulnerability of critical infrastructure of many States to cyber operations - particularly due to privatisation - means that militaries need to step up their contribution to cyber defence. They talk about why NATO militaries are reluctant to do this, the basis for this position, and why it is problematic.
Rhiannon Neilsen is a Scientia PhD Candidate at the University of New South Wales. Her research interests include atrocity prevention, moral and political philosophy, cyberspace, and the Responsibility to Protect. In 2019, she was awarded the Barbara Hale Fellowship by the Australian Federation of Graduate Women to be a visiting doctoral student at the University of Oxford. Rhiannon has also been a visiting scholar at the NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence (2019). Her published work has appeared in international journals, such as Ethics and International Affairs (2020), Terrorism and Political Violence (2019), and Genocide Studies and Prevention (2015).
Karine Pontbriand is a PhD Candidate in International Relations and Cyber Security at UNSW Canberra, and is a member of the Research Group on Cyber War and Peace. She is also a research fellow at the Research Group on Cyber Diplomacy and Cyber Security at the Montreal Institute of International Studies (IEIM). Before starting her doctoral studies, she worked as a policy analyst for Global Affairs Canada where she was focusing on the use of digital technology to advance Canada's foreign policy priorities. She has an undergraduate degree in International Relations and International Law and a master’s degree in International and Intercultural Communication (with Distinction, Highest Grade). Her main research interests are international cyber security, cyber diplomacy and cyber war and US-China cyber relations.
Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) and Ukraine - Benjamin Strick
Law and the Future of War
11/02/22 • 55 min
This is the fourth episode in our series about accountability in Ukraine. This episode focuses on the collection and collation of information (and potential evidence) using open-source intelligence. As you will hear, OSINT has played a key role in the development of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and in the monitoring of conflict in Myanmar. Today we are speaking with a world expert in the skills required of open source intelligence collection – Benjamin Strick.
Benjamin is a digital investigator with a background in law, military and technology, specialising in open source intelligence (OSINT), investigations, influence operations, data and maps. He is known for his contributions to multiple streams of human rights abuse investigations; and accountability projects using his online investigation skills, as well as for generating discussion and sharing those skills to democratise OSINT analysis.
Ben is the Director of Investigations for both the Centre for Information Resilience and the Myanmar Witness Project. He was previously an open source investigator with BBC Africa Eye, is a Bellingcat contributor and a co-founder of Ocelli Project. In 2021 he was awarded Open Source Intelligence Champion of the Year for his investment, commitment and contribution to the field.
To learn more about OSINT and how it works, check out Ben's YouTube channel where he posts free digital research tutorials. You can also learn more about Ben and his work by visiting his website or following him on Twitter. See also the OSINT Combine Academy.
To see the Russia-Ukraine Monitor Map, see:
https://maphub.net/Cen4infoRes/russian-ukraine-monitor
To check if your passwords have been hacked and are online, see: https://haveibeenpwned.com/
OSINT Volunteer projects:
National Child Protection Task Force
Europol Stop Child Abuse - Trace an Object
Episode edited by Rosie Carvdarski.
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FAQ
How many episodes does Law and the Future of War have?
Law and the Future of War currently has 93 episodes available.
What topics does Law and the Future of War cover?
The podcast is about Podcasts, Technology, National Security and Government.
What is the most popular episode on Law and the Future of War?
The episode title 'Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) and Ukraine - Benjamin Strick' is the most popular.
What is the average episode length on Law and the Future of War?
The average episode length on Law and the Future of War is 41 minutes.
How often are episodes of Law and the Future of War released?
Episodes of Law and the Future of War are typically released every 14 days.
When was the first episode of Law and the Future of War?
The first episode of Law and the Future of War was released on Oct 23, 2020.
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