6. Spy Versus Spy (Season 2)

Explicit content warning

11/10/22 • 27 min

Virginia Hall had been expecting company. One of the Resistance leaders in France had informed her of a new courier that could be of use to HECKLER, Virginia’s faction of the Resistance. But what Virginia didn’t know was that the courier was Robert Alesh—a Nazi operative who had managed to infiltrate the Resistance while posing as a priest. Right away, Virginia suspected something was off.

This episode contains interviews with:

• Karen Schaefer: worked for the CIA for 26 years on assignments overseas in Latin America, Europe, Afghanistan and Iraq, where she was Chief of Base and holding several different leadership positions including Chief of Operations, Directorate of Science and Technology; Deputy Associate Director of Military Affairs; and Deputy Chief of Counterintelligence, Near East Division.

• Andrew Orr: a professor in the Department of History at Kansas State University, a specialist in modern military history, intelligence operations in the Middle East, imperialism, civil-military relations, and the history of French Communist Party identity; author of Women and the French Army

• Chris Costa: Executive Director of the International Spy Museum, a 34-year veteran of the Department of Defense, and he served 25 years in the United States Army working in counterintelligence, human intelligence and with special operations forces in Central America, Europe, and the Middle East.
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins

“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode contains interviews with:

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Previous Episode

5. Enemy Territory (Season 2)

Robert Alesh’s hunt for “The Limping Lady” brings him to the doorstep of Resistance operative Dr. Jean Rousset. Alesh tricks the doctor into believing he is a new courier for the French Resistance. In reality, he was a Nazi spy working directly for infamous SS officer Klaus Barbie.

Virginia Hall had successfully managed to save a British pilot from German clutches, but the rescue came with a cost. She’d exposed her alias to the Nazis and now she had to move. Virginia abandons her safe house and sets up another. Up to this point, Virginia could move about in France without much push-back. She could use her status as an American to fend off a stint in a German prison so long as she wasn’t actively stirring up trouble. It was still the middle of 1941, and the US hadn’t officially entered the War.
Between her rescue of the British pilot and Alesh’s visit to Dr. Rousset’s home, The Limping Lady had become a major thorn in the side of the SS. She had managed to gather intel of German missions and plots to target British strongholds in France that gave the Brits an edge. The Limping Lady was considered by the SS to be the leader of a new Resistance network named HECKLER, that supplied Resistance members with weaponry, housing, and escape routes out of the country. In reality, Virginia wasn’t just the leader of HECKLER, but the founder.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Christopher Dillon: a senior lecturer of modern German history at King's College London. In 2015, he published a book called Dachau and the SS: A Schooling in Violence
• Abe Malnik: A Holocaust survivor and former prisoner at the Dachau concentraition camp. Contains clips from interviews with Abe Malnik from United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of the Holocaust Eyewitness Project and Edith Fierst. © Holocaust Eyewitness Project. For more info visit USHMM
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins

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Next Episode

7. Escape into the Mountains (Season 2)

Virginia Hall’s identity was exposed. Now she had to get out of France and into Spain, and that meant an excruciating climb over 30 miles of tumultuous mountain terrain. Virginia knew that attempting the trek alone would mean death, especially given that she’d be hiking with her prosthetic leg. Luckily, Perpignan, the town she’d landed in, had a Resistance contact she knew fairly well. A man known to her by his codename: Gilbert.
Edward Stourton: "If they were found out, things could be very, very nasty indeed and many of them who were caught went off into camps in Germany. A lot of 'em died. A lot of 'em died in really awful ways. The Germans had a system called ‘Nacht und Nebel’, Night and Fog, which meant that people just disappeared into the system of concentration camps, and nobody knew where they were. Which of course was intended to frighten anybody considering, going onto the wrong side and, and joining an escape line and helping people to get over over the Pyrenees."
This episode contains interviews with:
• Edward Stourton: BBC broadcaster who made a commemorative trek across the Pyrenees some 70 years after Virginia Hall; author of the book Cruel Crossing: Escaping Hitler Across the Pyrenees
• Judith Pearson: expert on Virginia Hall and author of the book The Wolves at the Door: The True Story of America’s Greatest Female Spy
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Good Assassins - 6. Spy Versus Spy (Season 2)

Transcript

Speaker 100:00:07.120

Diversion audio. A note this episode contains descriptions of violence that may be disturbing for some audiences. Please take care in listening. This series is based on historical characters and real events. Some dialogue has been imagined for dramatic purposes when no primary source material is available. Virginia Hall had been expecting company. A few weeks earlier. Doctor Jean Hussay, one of the resistance leaders in France, had informed her o