Log in

goodpods headphones icon

To access all our features

Open the Goodpods app
Close icon
Everyone Is Right - Robert Kegan and Ken Wilber — The Evolving Self: Part 2

Robert Kegan and Ken Wilber — The Evolving Self: Part 2

12/02/18 • 22 min

Everyone Is Right
Robert Kegan, the author of The Evolving Self and In Over Our Heads, explores the vital role of interior development in creating a more inclusive and integrated world, as well as the importance of the appropriate use of discriminating awareness. Robert Kegan is a founding member of Integral Institute and the author of the critically acclaimed books The Evolving Self, In Over Our Heads, and How the Way We Talk Can Change the Way We Work. Bob is also the first-ever Meehan Professor of Adult Learning and Professional Development at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. As the holder of this endowed chair, Bob has the official support of HGSE to pursue developmental studies for the rest of his career. This is significant. For the past several decades developmental studies have fallen upon some hard times in academia. For many, to have a developmental view is to be hierarchical—and to be hierarchical is to be oppressive, regressive, patriarchal, and a direct contributor to the suffering of untold millions. The fact the HGSE has decided to so clearly support Bob’s work is a welcome sign that the winds may be shifting. It’s important to note that there are (at least) two significantly different ways that “hierarchy” can be understood: as it exists in the exterior structure of a society and as it exists in the interior structure of an individual. Historically, enormous abuses of power have occurred by those at the top of a societal hierarchy—but those who would do so are by definition not at the higher stages of the interior, developmental hierarchy. Psychologically, people grow through stages of increasing competence, care, and concern. Each stage transcends and includes the function of what came before, but excludes an exclusive identity with that function. In Bob’s work he outlines Five Orders of Consciousness: First Order: Impulsive—Perceives and responds by emotion. Second Order: Imperial—Motivated solely by one’s desires. Third Order: Interpersonal—Defined by the group. Fourth Order: Institutional—Self directed, self authoring. Fifth Order: Interindividual—Interpenetration of self systems. Loosely, one can think of the first and second orders as egocentric (me), the third order as ethnocentric (us), and the fourth and fifth orders as worldcentric (all of us). If one grows from egocentric to ethnocentric, one doesn’t stop caring about oneself, but that care and concern is now extended to one’s family, community, nation, and so on. Likewise with the growth from ethnocentric to worldcentric, that care is now extended to all people regardless of race, class, creed, gender, etc. As Bob and Ken discuss, an important element of worldcentric consciousness is the contributions of postmodernism, including feminism, civil rights, and, among other things, the understanding that a substantial amount of human knowledge is context dependant and culturally bound. But postmodernism then stepped beyond what it had evidence for and claimed that all knowledge was relative, and therefore nothing could be said to be better than anything else. In fact, a fellow researcher, Clare Graves, called this level of development relativistic (Spiral Dynamics green), which research has shown accounts for about 20% of the American population. But as Ken points out, that means that about 20% of the population has gotten confused about how to make conscious, explicit judgments. Most of the people in this group would agree that a worldcentric embrace of all cultures is better than ethnocentric racism, but postmodern relativism won’t be able tell them why it’s okay to think this way. When all judgments have been outlawed, even sensible examples of discriminating awareness rightly applied have nothing to stand on. Originally published on 12/20/2004
plus icon
bookmark
Robert Kegan, the author of The Evolving Self and In Over Our Heads, explores the vital role of interior development in creating a more inclusive and integrated world, as well as the importance of the appropriate use of discriminating awareness. Robert Kegan is a founding member of Integral Institute and the author of the critically acclaimed books The Evolving Self, In Over Our Heads, and How the Way We Talk Can Change the Way We Work. Bob is also the first-ever Meehan Professor of Adult Learning and Professional Development at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. As the holder of this endowed chair, Bob has the official support of HGSE to pursue developmental studies for the rest of his career. This is significant. For the past several decades developmental studies have fallen upon some hard times in academia. For many, to have a developmental view is to be hierarchical—and to be hierarchical is to be oppressive, regressive, patriarchal, and a direct contributor to the suffering of untold millions. The fact the HGSE has decided to so clearly support Bob’s work is a welcome sign that the winds may be shifting. It’s important to note that there are (at least) two significantly different ways that “hierarchy” can be understood: as it exists in the exterior structure of a society and as it exists in the interior structure of an individual. Historically, enormous abuses of power have occurred by those at the top of a societal hierarchy—but those who would do so are by definition not at the higher stages of the interior, developmental hierarchy. Psychologically, people grow through stages of increasing competence, care, and concern. Each stage transcends and includes the function of what came before, but excludes an exclusive identity with that function. In Bob’s work he outlines Five Orders of Consciousness: First Order: Impulsive—Perceives and responds by emotion. Second Order: Imperial—Motivated solely by one’s desires. Third Order: Interpersonal—Defined by the group. Fourth Order: Institutional—Self directed, self authoring. Fifth Order: Interindividual—Interpenetration of self systems. Loosely, one can think of the first and second orders as egocentric (me), the third order as ethnocentric (us), and the fourth and fifth orders as worldcentric (all of us). If one grows from egocentric to ethnocentric, one doesn’t stop caring about oneself, but that care and concern is now extended to one’s family, community, nation, and so on. Likewise with the growth from ethnocentric to worldcentric, that care is now extended to all people regardless of race, class, creed, gender, etc. As Bob and Ken discuss, an important element of worldcentric consciousness is the contributions of postmodernism, including feminism, civil rights, and, among other things, the understanding that a substantial amount of human knowledge is context dependant and culturally bound. But postmodernism then stepped beyond what it had evidence for and claimed that all knowledge was relative, and therefore nothing could be said to be better than anything else. In fact, a fellow researcher, Clare Graves, called this level of development relativistic (Spiral Dynamics green), which research has shown accounts for about 20% of the American population. But as Ken points out, that means that about 20% of the population has gotten confused about how to make conscious, explicit judgments. Most of the people in this group would agree that a worldcentric embrace of all cultures is better than ethnocentric racism, but postmodern relativism won’t be able tell them why it’s okay to think this way. When all judgments have been outlawed, even sensible examples of discriminating awareness rightly applied have nothing to stand on. Originally published on 12/20/2004

Previous Episode

undefined - Robert Kegan and Ken Wilber — The Evolving Self: Part 1

Robert Kegan and Ken Wilber — The Evolving Self: Part 1

Robert Kegan, the author of The Evolving Self and In Over Our Heads, explores the vital role of interior development in creating a more inclusive and integrated world, as well as the importance of the appropriate use of discriminating awareness. Robert Kegan is a founding member of Integral Institute and the author of the critically acclaimed books The Evolving Self, In Over Our Heads, and How the Way We Talk Can Change the Way We Work. Bob is also the first-ever Meehan Professor of Adult Learning and Professional Development at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. As the holder of this endowed chair, Bob has the official support of HGSE to pursue developmental studies for the rest of his career. This is significant. For the past several decades developmental studies have fallen upon some hard times in academia. For many, to have a developmental view is to be hierarchical—and to be hierarchical is to be oppressive, regressive, patriarchal, and a direct contributor to the suffering of untold millions. The fact the HGSE has decided to so clearly support Bob’s work is a welcome sign that the winds may be shifting. It’s important to note that there are (at least) two significantly different ways that “hierarchy” can be understood: as it exists in the exterior structure of a society and as it exists in the interior structure of an individual. Historically, enormous abuses of power have occurred by those at the top of a societal hierarchy—but those who would do so are by definition not at the higher stages of the interior, developmental hierarchy. Psychologically, people grow through stages of increasing competence, care, and concern. Each stage transcends and includes the function of what came before, but excludes an exclusive identity with that function. In Bob’s work he outlines Five Orders of Consciousness: First Order: Impulsive—Perceives and responds by emotion. Second Order: Imperial—Motivated solely by one’s desires. Third Order: Interpersonal—Defined by the group. Fourth Order: Institutional—Self directed, self authoring. Fifth Order: Interindividual—Interpenetration of self systems. Loosely, one can think of the first and second orders as egocentric (me), the third order as ethnocentric (us), and the fourth and fifth orders as worldcentric (all of us). If one grows from egocentric to ethnocentric, one doesn’t stop caring about oneself, but that care and concern is now extended to one’s family, community, nation, and so on. Likewise with the growth from ethnocentric to worldcentric, that care is now extended to all people regardless of race, class, creed, gender, etc. As Bob and Ken discuss, an important element of worldcentric consciousness is the contributions of postmodernism, including feminism, civil rights, and, among other things, the understanding that a substantial amount of human knowledge is context dependant and culturally bound. But postmodernism then stepped beyond what it had evidence for and claimed that all knowledge was relative, and therefore nothing could be said to be better than anything else. In fact, a fellow researcher, Clare Graves, called this level of development relativistic (Spiral Dynamics green), which research has shown accounts for about 20% of the American population. But as Ken points out, that means that about 20% of the population has gotten confused about how to make conscious, explicit judgments. Most of the people in this group would agree that a worldcentric embrace of all cultures is better than ethnocentric racism, but postmodern relativism won’t be able tell them why it’s okay to think this way. When all judgments have been outlawed, even sensible examples of discriminating awareness rightly applied have nothing to stand on. Originally published on 12/20/2004

Next Episode

undefined - Kevin Kelly and Ken Wilber — Part 1: Technology, Evolution, and God

Kevin Kelly and Ken Wilber — Part 1: Technology, Evolution, and God

Wired magazine’s own “Senior Maverick” talks with Ken Wilber about some of the ideas behind Kevin’s blog The Technium, which explores the various ways humanity defines and redefines itself through the interface of science, technology, culture, and consciousness. Kevin also shares some of his own thoughts about the role of spirituality in the 21st century, going into considerable depth around his own spiritual awakening several decades ago. The universe, we are told, is winding down. Nothing escapes the remorseless grasp of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics—and with each passing moment, our world, our solar system, indeed our entire galaxy slowly approaches its inevitable heat-death. But this is not the full story, for while the universe is winding down, it is also winding up, bringing forth new forms from old, adding new layers of complexity where there was once only an empty vacuum. It is what Alfred Whitehead called the “creative advance into novelty,” referring to a distinct “tilt” of the universe toward more complexity, more significance, and more wholeness. From atoms, to molecules, to single-cell and multi-cellular organisms, to the reptilian brain, mammalian brain, and the human neocortex—the universe is abound with inexhaustible creativity, pushing deeper and wider towards its own limitless potential. Entropy and evolution: these two “arrows of time” exert their pull upon everything that ever is, was, and will be—one pulling us up toward the eternal light, the other pulling us down toward the infinite black. But it is not just physical matter that is evolving! Alongside the increasing complexification of the material world, evolution brings forth novelty in at least three other dimensions, particularly evident within human evolution: - We see the evolution of systems, such as the movement from foraging to horticulture, to agriculture, to industrial, to informational modes of techno-economic production. - We see the evolution of cultural worldviews, such as the developmental model offered by Jean Gebser, in which cultures develop through archaic/instinctual, magic/animistic, mythic/traditional, rational/scientific, pluralistic/postmodern, and integral worldviews, each offering radically different ways of interpreting our world and our roles within it. - And, perhaps most profoundly, we see the evolution of consciousness, with cognitive faculties developing from Piaget’s pre-operational, to concrete operational, to formal-operational, to Wilber’s suggested “vision-logic” stage—and with values developing from pre-modern, to modern, to post-modern (or pre-rational, rational, and trans-rational) stages, and beyond. Taken together, we notice a rich mosaic of evolutionary emergence, in at least four important dimensions: subjective and objective development in both individuals and collectives. This gives rise to Wilber’s famous “Four Quadrant” map, one of a handful of basic components that comprise the Integral model. The Integral approach helps to reveal some of the deepest patterns that run through all human knowledge, showing the relationships that exist between physical evolution, systemic evolution, cultural evolution, and conscious evolution.

Episode Comments

Generate a badge

Get a badge for your website that links back to this episode

Select type & size
Open dropdown icon
share badge image

<a href="https://goodpods.com/podcasts/everyone-is-right-351253/robert-kegan-and-ken-wilber-the-evolving-self-part-2-50824701"> <img src="https://storage.googleapis.com/goodpods-images-bucket/badges/generic-badge-1.svg" alt="listen to robert kegan and ken wilber — the evolving self: part 2 on goodpods" style="width: 225px" /> </a>

Copy