Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

This two-part podcast with Paul Leonardi and Tsedal Neeley is an absolute game changer. Given how often I find myself working with leaders who are knee-high in uncertainty and vulnerability around digital transformation, I thought I had a pretty solid understanding of it. But The Digital Mindset book and this conversation turned everything upside down.

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We’re back with Part 2 of my conversation with Mike Erwin, the founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership Center and the co-author of Leadership Is a Relationship. In this episode, we continue to dig into how the most effective leaders prioritize relationships. They give feedback that calls attention to the behaviors they want to encourage, invest in the slow work of pulling and keeping people together, and navigate the trickiness of loyalty, a state that, if it starts to move us out of our values, can become transactional, not relational.

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This is the first of two episodes with Mike Erwin, the founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership Center and the co-author of Leadership Is a Relationship, a timely book that details why leaders who prioritize relationships are more effective. It’s a conversation about the seven functions of relationship-building and the importance of prioritizing our relationships as people and also as leaders.

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I won’t lie: This conversation was hard as hell. But — I’m so grateful to Lisa Lahey and all the work she and Robert Kegan have done on the “immunity to change” theory. It explains why lasting, meaningful change is damn hard. Rather than simply talking about the process, Lisa and I actually engage in it around something I’m desperate to change (and somewhat refusing to change). She is so skilled at asking questions and framing conversations — this is a MASTER class

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I don’t like to think of myself as someone who’s averse to change. But, man, am I averse to change. Enter the amazing Lisa Lahey. She is a Harvard Graduate School of Education faculty member who has built a body of work to help learners and leaders overcome the innate human aversion to change. And I thought, when I asked her to join us for a two-parter on this podcast, that we’d talk about the “immunity to change” theory — how change happens, why it’s so hard — from an academic perspective. Instead, she walks me through a very personal struggle around something in my life that I’ve desperately wanted to change but just seemingly cannot.

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