31. There Was So Much Math!
10/04/21 • 66 min
Jared, Oriana and Ned talk about Ned’s choice of topic: The Nature of Middle-earth. The newest official Tolkien book is anything but a cohesive volume, instead being a collection of remaining unpublished writings from the overall Tolkien archive about Middle-earth, written mostly in the late 1950s and late 1960s, with a heavy focus on more philosophical and generally foundational concepts and aspects of Tolkien’s creation. Edited by Carl Hostetter with the full approval of Christopher Tolkien before the latter’s passing, it’s at once detailed scholarship and the source of a variety of new wrinkles and outright surprises concerning Middle-earth. What can be made of the deep discussions of Elvish culture and life, and the literal differences as a species from Men? How did Tolkien address the concept of Elvish reincarnation in particular, and what exactly did that imply in terms of what the Valar could do? What does it mean that Tolkien constantly chose to frame everything from the point of view of referring to ‘scholars’ and authorities rather than simply leaning into his own creative process? And how delightful is it to learn that Númenor was the home of a legendary annual bear dance?
Show Notes.
Jared’s doodle. Besides bears, we learn that Númenor has a lot of cliffs.
The California redwood parks are among the best.
TheOneRing.net’s summary of the Howard Shore semi-news/demi-rumor/whatever it might be.
Star Wars: Visions is a treat.
Red X by David Demchuk is the book Jared’s illustrated. Check it out!
The Nature of Middle-earth -- order away!
Vinyar Tengwar and the E.L.F. info is there for you.
Kristine Larsen’s extensive bibliography on her work on Tolkien and astronomy is very well worth the investigation.
The Isaac Newton story Ned mentioned is a little more involved than that—here’s a 2014 interview with an author who wrote about Newton’s papers in more detail.
Now if you’ve not seen Spirited Away, we do highly recommend it.
The Notion Club Papers is too underdiscussed, really. It’s a very interesting, strange effort.
Flat-earth Catholics, well...we’ll just link this. (It’s not ‘pro-flat earth,’ rest assured.)
Neoplatonism! We understand if you’re already asleep.
If you want a little more about the phenomenal world...
The Magisterium is VERY much a thing.
So let’s talk the Gnostics!
Enjoy some more about bear dances in our world. As for Finnish bear cults...
You can support By-The-Bywater and all of Megaphonic on Patreon, and thank you if you do!
Jared, Oriana and Ned talk about Ned’s choice of topic: The Nature of Middle-earth. The newest official Tolkien book is anything but a cohesive volume, instead being a collection of remaining unpublished writings from the overall Tolkien archive about Middle-earth, written mostly in the late 1950s and late 1960s, with a heavy focus on more philosophical and generally foundational concepts and aspects of Tolkien’s creation. Edited by Carl Hostetter with the full approval of Christopher Tolkien before the latter’s passing, it’s at once detailed scholarship and the source of a variety of new wrinkles and outright surprises concerning Middle-earth. What can be made of the deep discussions of Elvish culture and life, and the literal differences as a species from Men? How did Tolkien address the concept of Elvish reincarnation in particular, and what exactly did that imply in terms of what the Valar could do? What does it mean that Tolkien constantly chose to frame everything from the point of view of referring to ‘scholars’ and authorities rather than simply leaning into his own creative process? And how delightful is it to learn that Númenor was the home of a legendary annual bear dance?
Show Notes.
Jared’s doodle. Besides bears, we learn that Númenor has a lot of cliffs.
The California redwood parks are among the best.
TheOneRing.net’s summary of the Howard Shore semi-news/demi-rumor/whatever it might be.
Star Wars: Visions is a treat.
Red X by David Demchuk is the book Jared’s illustrated. Check it out!
The Nature of Middle-earth -- order away!
Vinyar Tengwar and the E.L.F. info is there for you.
Kristine Larsen’s extensive bibliography on her work on Tolkien and astronomy is very well worth the investigation.
The Isaac Newton story Ned mentioned is a little more involved than that—here’s a 2014 interview with an author who wrote about Newton’s papers in more detail.
Now if you’ve not seen Spirited Away, we do highly recommend it.
The Notion Club Papers is too underdiscussed, really. It’s a very interesting, strange effort.
Flat-earth Catholics, well...we’ll just link this. (It’s not ‘pro-flat earth,’ rest assured.)
Neoplatonism! We understand if you’re already asleep.
If you want a little more about the phenomenal world...
The Magisterium is VERY much a thing.
So let’s talk the Gnostics!
Enjoy some more about bear dances in our world. As for Finnish bear cults...
You can support By-The-Bywater and all of Megaphonic on Patreon, and thank you if you do!
Previous Episode
30. The Family That Fights Together Stays Alive Together.
Jared, Oriana and Ned talk about Jared’s choice of topic: The Fall of Gondolin. One of the three ‘Great Tales’ that formed the key heart of Tolkien’s earliest work on Middle-earth with the Book of Lost Tales, the story of the hidden Elf refuge that was destroyed in an evening of primal violence after a betrayal remained one of the most powerfully resonant for the rest of Tolkien’s creative life. Referred to in other works and in various mentions over his lifetime, it only surfaced in redacted form with the original 1977 publication of The Silmarillion. Christopher Tolkien’s last published work on his father’s fiction drew together the various forms of the story, including the extensively revised and expanded but frustratingly incomplete revision from the 1950s, into one volume. What might be the weight of this story in particular in terms of how to view the rest of Tolkien’s Middle-earth work that followed? How might Gondolin’s story serve as a way for Tolkien to work through his own feelings of experiencing wanton destruction via his war service? What does the experience of Tuor’s encounter with Ulmo on the shores of the sea in the revised version tell us about not only the perspective of Men viewing the Valar but also what strange undercurrents about Middle-earth’s theology might exist? And how did we end up comparing Idril Celebrindal to Avril Lavigne? (Jared’s still indignant about that one.)
Show Notes.
Jared’s doodle. It’s a long way to fall in cool waters...
Indeed, we all three recommend The Green Knight. We all appreciated this lengthy discussion.
Amazon’s tweet announcing when the show would begin, along with THAT image. Which, yes, has been...discussed. (And if you’re wondering why we’re going on about September 22...)
Separately, news about the shift from New Zealand to the UK for season two.
The Fall of Gondolin as a text is really the place to start, just to compare all the various versions and get a sense of how the story changed and evolved.
As always: Tuor is just a guy. (But as Oriana says, rereading the story for this episode provided more insight.)
The History of the Hobbit is very much recommended, almost like a distaff entry in the History of Middle-earth series.
Perhaps you’ve heard of The Clone Wars.
The USS Scamp was the submarine that Ned’s dad and Jared’s grandfather served on together, unknowingly. Small world!
The Alan Lee painting showing Turgon’s fall. That’s really good and unsettling all at once.
The ‘From each according to his ability’ line is rather well known.
Voronwë is a legit interesting character we don’t have enough of
The Seven Gates of Gondolin. At least we have the full detail of those!
Alan Lee’s take on Tuor and Ulmo. (For contrast, here’s John Howe’s.)
Ulmo really does have an intriguing role in the mythology.
Watch out for the Actually Guys.
Idril is even more of a legit interesting character etc.
Were you a Sk8er Boi? Or did you love one? How obvious WAS it?
Next Episode
32. He's Being Ganged Up On By These Mean Little Jerks!
Jared, Oriana and Ned talk about Oriana’s choice of topic: Sam Gamgee. For all that Frodo Baggins is the Ringbearer and makes something close to the ultimate sacrifice for the fate of the world—at least right until the very last moment—it’s Sam, son of Bag-End’s gardener who seems to only join Frodo at first to help take care of a new house in Buckland, who ends up being the key figure in The Lord of the Rings that helps Frodo on the quest and who remains most grounded in the whirlwind of fates surrounding his steps, down to having the book’s last words. Thanks to a variety of notable performance interpretations over the years, especially and most indelibly Sean Astin’s marvelous turn in the Peter Jackson films, he might just be the most warmly regarded character as well even beyond the book readers. What is the full meaning and understanding behind Tolkien’s well-known comment about Sam being a tribute to his batmen during World War I, and who were the batmen and private soldiers in general in that conflict? Does the understandable characterization of Sam as ‘just’ a simple hobbit belie a notable depth evident even from the start of the book, and how did Tolkien conceive of Sam as distinct from hobbits in general? What fully went into Astin’s portrayal of Sam in particular for the films, and how much of it was also something provided by other key creative forces? And what was the American radio production team from 1979 exactly thinking when they cast Lucille Bliss as Sam?
Show Notes.
Jared’s doodle. What can you see on the horizon, indeed.
Wanna be like Oriana? Here’s how to apply to the Warner Bros.’ Writers Workshop.
A summary of the Lenny Henry radio interview with some key quotes.
Willow does have its fanbase, and this planned new series could be good.
The Wheel of Time is coming and we await with interest...
Dune, yes. We quite like it. (Tolkien himself did not.)
Letter 246 to Eileen Elgar, which has a lot of background information on Sam and other characters and their motivations and personalities.
You can find plenty of Sean Astin clips of him portraying Sam out there. As for the others? Some samples: Roddy McDowall for Rankin-Bass, Bill Nighy for the BBC, Michael Scholes for Ralph Bakshi and Lucille Bliss for NPR/The Mind’s Eye (skip ahead to 7:15 in that one).
The famed Tolkien/Sam Gamgee correspondence. Who knew, indeed?
Shakespeare’s rustic characters were something stock, and indeed were often termed ‘clowns’ rather than fools or jesters. Here’s a little more about that.
The Marx quote was from the Communist Manifesto, and indeed, ‘the idiocy of rural life.’
More on that hand-holding moment.
John Garth’s Tolkien and the Great War is well worth a read.
Batmen are a thing, and nothing to do with DC.
Sean Astin’s autobiography There And Back Again is a very key read for anyone interested in the J...
If you like this episode you’ll love
Episode Comments
Generate a badge
Get a badge for your website that links back to this episode
<a href="https://goodpods.com/podcasts/by-the-bywater-a-podcast-about-all-things-jrr-tolkien-191728/31-there-was-so-much-math-17855398"> <img src="https://storage.googleapis.com/goodpods-images-bucket/badges/generic-badge-1.svg" alt="listen to 31. there was so much math! on goodpods" style="width: 225px" /> </a>
Copy