29. Always Around to Do the Bare Minimum.
07/30/21 • 48 min
Jared, Oriana and Ned talk about Oriana’s choice of topic: the Eagles. Most familiar to Tolkien readers via the lordly and imposing figure of Gwaihir, identified as the Lord of the Eagles in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, the Eagles have a recurring role in many of the stories of Middle-earth, acting as emissaries, guardians, intercessors and figures of warning or doom. They serve the Valar, their leader Manwë in particular, but often seem to be following their own particular code of living. However, a recent tweet based off a Polygon article about them in their Lord of the Rings series this year revived an old—and rather tiresome—controversy about whether the Eagles act as a deus ex machina in the plots of the stories—or even more tiresomely, are somehow supposed to be a plot hole. What are the roots of eagles in mythology in general, and how has that impact on the human imagination played out in Tolkien’s legendarium? Do the Eagles even particularly care about what is happening in realms beyond their own, and regard nearly everyone and everything as being of a piece? What do the sudden appearances of Gwaihir’s ancestor Thorondor at various points in the published Silmarillion say about how they function in terms of both being Manwë’s servants and in noting the working out of the Doom of Mandos? And how is it that such lofty, indeed arrogant figures like the Eagles have incredibly sharp senses of humor?
Show Notes.
Jared’s doodle. Would you like to fly, on my beautiful ea-gle...
Uh yeah get your shots, the end.
That TheOneRing.net spy report. Questions, questions, we have them!
Blue Harvest! Horror beyond imagination!
Blue Origin! Also horror beyond imagination!
The HarperCollins UK tweet about Andy Serkis’s further audiobook work, with further links.
That Foreign Policy piece “Comrades of the Ring” — worth a read!
The Eagles! They fly around.
That misleading Polygon tweet. They could do better.
The Tolkien Gateway summary of Letter 210, Tolkien’s response to the screenwriting treatment created in the late 1950s.
“Someone is WRONG on the Internet.”
CinemaSins? We hate it.
Edmund Wilson’s “Oo, Those Awful Orcs” does not appear to contain any Eagles complaints.
Bored of the Rings. It’s very, very of its time.
Deus ex machina! It’s a thing.
The Peter Jackson Beorn bear bomb. Well, yes, there we go.
Eagles in world mythology? You’re darn right it’s a thing.
We only know so much about the Sky Father.
Superstore! Probably a defining US comedy of the second half of the 2010s.
Metro Micro, should you so desire.
Ted Naismith’s painting of the cloud eagle in the West as Númenor approaches its doom.
Support By-The-Bywater (and Megaphonic FM) on Patreon. Thanks!
Jared, Oriana and Ned talk about Oriana’s choice of topic: the Eagles. Most familiar to Tolkien readers via the lordly and imposing figure of Gwaihir, identified as the Lord of the Eagles in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, the Eagles have a recurring role in many of the stories of Middle-earth, acting as emissaries, guardians, intercessors and figures of warning or doom. They serve the Valar, their leader Manwë in particular, but often seem to be following their own particular code of living. However, a recent tweet based off a Polygon article about them in their Lord of the Rings series this year revived an old—and rather tiresome—controversy about whether the Eagles act as a deus ex machina in the plots of the stories—or even more tiresomely, are somehow supposed to be a plot hole. What are the roots of eagles in mythology in general, and how has that impact on the human imagination played out in Tolkien’s legendarium? Do the Eagles even particularly care about what is happening in realms beyond their own, and regard nearly everyone and everything as being of a piece? What do the sudden appearances of Gwaihir’s ancestor Thorondor at various points in the published Silmarillion say about how they function in terms of both being Manwë’s servants and in noting the working out of the Doom of Mandos? And how is it that such lofty, indeed arrogant figures like the Eagles have incredibly sharp senses of humor?
Show Notes.
Jared’s doodle. Would you like to fly, on my beautiful ea-gle...
Uh yeah get your shots, the end.
That TheOneRing.net spy report. Questions, questions, we have them!
Blue Harvest! Horror beyond imagination!
Blue Origin! Also horror beyond imagination!
The HarperCollins UK tweet about Andy Serkis’s further audiobook work, with further links.
That Foreign Policy piece “Comrades of the Ring” — worth a read!
The Eagles! They fly around.
That misleading Polygon tweet. They could do better.
The Tolkien Gateway summary of Letter 210, Tolkien’s response to the screenwriting treatment created in the late 1950s.
“Someone is WRONG on the Internet.”
CinemaSins? We hate it.
Edmund Wilson’s “Oo, Those Awful Orcs” does not appear to contain any Eagles complaints.
Bored of the Rings. It’s very, very of its time.
Deus ex machina! It’s a thing.
The Peter Jackson Beorn bear bomb. Well, yes, there we go.
Eagles in world mythology? You’re darn right it’s a thing.
We only know so much about the Sky Father.
Superstore! Probably a defining US comedy of the second half of the 2010s.
Metro Micro, should you so desire.
Ted Naismith’s painting of the cloud eagle in the West as Númenor approaches its doom.
Support By-The-Bywater (and Megaphonic FM) on Patreon. Thanks!
Previous Episode
28. Is He Hot Or Is He Tall?
Jared, Oriana and Ned talk about Ned’s choice of topic: The Children of Húrin. The final posthumously published form of one of Tolkien’s original creations from the Book of Lost Tales, the 2007 book, edited and retouched slightly by Christopher Tolkien, The Children of Húrin primarily tells the story of the oldest child, Túrin. One of Tolkien’s most compelling figures, Túrin not merely verges on the antiheroic but at points nonheroic, simultaneously a figure driven by vengeance and justice for his losses and those of his family but ultimately causing the death and destruction of most of what he holds dear—he slays one of Morgoth’s chief lieutenants, the dragon Glaurung, but Glaurung exacts a terrible cost even in death. Is Túrin’s course in life truly the working out of a curse by Morgoth or is it the result of rash actions taken in the face of wiser counsel almost every step of the way? What does it say that it is one of Tolkien’s most vividly physical stories, including various humiliating fates, at one point the threat of rape, and in the end, drawing on one of humanity’s deepest taboos, unwitting incest? For all that various flawed or doomed heterosexual relationships define much of Túrin’s life, what does it say that the deepest connection he feels is to the Elf Beleg, and what does his own tragic death signify? And maybe to end on a lighter note, are those potatoes that the Petty-dwarves are digging up or what?
Show Notes.
Jared’s doodle. Tol Morwen, one of Middle-earth’s loveliest and saddest places.
Yes, Ned is a fan of RuPaul’s Drag Race in all its forms. He could go on.
The announcement of Warner Bros’s planned anime film, The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim.
Kenji Kamiyama has quite the rep, trust us.
And yes, as we talked about in episode 25, plenty of history already with Japanese animators and Tolkien!
That Fellowship of Fans Twitter thread with the Amazon contract details. Cross yer fingers...
TheOneRing.net’s piece with its best speculation about the whole issue of rights divisions going on about now.
The Children of Húrin—and there’s a lot going on.
That Tumblr post with Túrin describing himself as the ultimate goth. He would.
Kullervo, the Finnish anti-hero that was the general source for Túrin but not the sole one. Tolkien’s translation, created before he created the Book of Lost Tales but only published formally in 2015, is one of his earliest works.
It’s a little obvious to mention—and Kullervo’s story overall is closer—but yes, Oedipus Rex is also a key template for the dramatic end of the story.
Ned’s old 2007 blog entry on reading The Children of Hurin.
Episode 2—and Tuor is still just a guy.
Glaurung, Tolkien’s other main dragon creation in Middle-earth...is a piece of work.
Is there Turin and Beleg fan art? C’mon, you know the answer.
Alan Lee’s illustration from the book of Glaurung approaching Brethil.
The Petty-dwarves have their own tangled tale, mostly unknown.
Support By-The-Bywater and all the other Megaphonic shows on Patreon. Thanks!
Next Episode
30. The Family That Fights Together Stays Alive Together.
Jared, Oriana and Ned talk about Jared’s choice of topic: The Fall of Gondolin. One of the three ‘Great Tales’ that formed the key heart of Tolkien’s earliest work on Middle-earth with the Book of Lost Tales, the story of the hidden Elf refuge that was destroyed in an evening of primal violence after a betrayal remained one of the most powerfully resonant for the rest of Tolkien’s creative life. Referred to in other works and in various mentions over his lifetime, it only surfaced in redacted form with the original 1977 publication of The Silmarillion. Christopher Tolkien’s last published work on his father’s fiction drew together the various forms of the story, including the extensively revised and expanded but frustratingly incomplete revision from the 1950s, into one volume. What might be the weight of this story in particular in terms of how to view the rest of Tolkien’s Middle-earth work that followed? How might Gondolin’s story serve as a way for Tolkien to work through his own feelings of experiencing wanton destruction via his war service? What does the experience of Tuor’s encounter with Ulmo on the shores of the sea in the revised version tell us about not only the perspective of Men viewing the Valar but also what strange undercurrents about Middle-earth’s theology might exist? And how did we end up comparing Idril Celebrindal to Avril Lavigne? (Jared’s still indignant about that one.)
Show Notes.
Jared’s doodle. It’s a long way to fall in cool waters...
Indeed, we all three recommend The Green Knight. We all appreciated this lengthy discussion.
Amazon’s tweet announcing when the show would begin, along with THAT image. Which, yes, has been...discussed. (And if you’re wondering why we’re going on about September 22...)
Separately, news about the shift from New Zealand to the UK for season two.
The Fall of Gondolin as a text is really the place to start, just to compare all the various versions and get a sense of how the story changed and evolved.
As always: Tuor is just a guy. (But as Oriana says, rereading the story for this episode provided more insight.)
The History of the Hobbit is very much recommended, almost like a distaff entry in the History of Middle-earth series.
Perhaps you’ve heard of The Clone Wars.
The USS Scamp was the submarine that Ned’s dad and Jared’s grandfather served on together, unknowingly. Small world!
The Alan Lee painting showing Turgon’s fall. That’s really good and unsettling all at once.
The ‘From each according to his ability’ line is rather well known.
Voronwë is a legit interesting character we don’t have enough of
The Seven Gates of Gondolin. At least we have the full detail of those!
Alan Lee’s take on Tuor and Ulmo. (For contrast, here’s John Howe’s.)
Ulmo really does have an intriguing role in the mythology.
Watch out for the Actually Guys.
Idril is even more of a legit interesting character etc.
Were you a Sk8er Boi? Or did you love one? How obvious WAS it?
If you like this episode you’ll love
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