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Wrestling Payments

Wrestling Payments

NEACH

Wrestling Payments is a podcast for professionals working at banks, credit unions, and FinTechs who are responsible for managing ACH and payment operations. In each episode, members of NEACH guide conversations to help professionals examine the challenges of modernizing payment operations. Ultimately, the stories uncovered through guest interviews and solo episodes will highlight industry trends and identify how organizations can build their payment operations for the future.

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Top 10 Wrestling Payments Episodes

Goodpods has curated a list of the 10 best Wrestling Payments episodes, ranked by the number of listens and likes each episode have garnered from our listeners. If you are listening to Wrestling Payments for the first time, there's no better place to start than with one of these standout episodes. If you are a fan of the show, vote for your favorite Wrestling Payments episode by adding your comments to the episode page.

Wrestling Payments - AI and Small Business: Tips from Joe Casali
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05/30/24 • 18 min

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Episode Summary

In this episode of "Wrestling Payments," host Joe Casali dives into the details of National Small Business Week. He emphasizes the importance of utilizing available resources, such as the SBA’s virtual summit and educational programs, to help small businesses thrive. Joe highlights key sessions on AI, cybersecurity, and marketing strategies that are crucial for business growth and stability in today’s dynamic environment.

Joe also discusses the practical aspects of running a small business, including managing cash flow and leveraging e-commerce. He underscores the significance of tools like positive pay for fraud prevention, sharing real-life examples to illustrate its benefits. His insights provide actionable advice for small business owners to navigate challenges and secure their operations.

Throughout the episode, Joe reminds listeners of the critical role small businesses play in the economy. He encourages owners to utilize community banks and credit unions for support and stresses the importance of staying informed about the latest industry trends and solutions. This episode is a valuable resource for any small business owner looking to enhance their operations and safeguard their future.

Key Insights
AI Can Drive Small Business Growth

Artificial Intelligence (AI) offers numerous benefits for small businesses, from generative AI to automation and pattern recognition. Generative AI can create content, such as business stories and marketing materials, efficiently and effectively. Automation and pattern recognition help businesses spot trends and anomalies, enhancing risk management and decision-making processes. AI's potential to streamline operations and improve accuracy makes it an invaluable tool for small businesses looking to grow and stay competitive in a rapidly changing market.

Cybersecurity is Critical for Remote Work

In the current landscape where remote work has become prevalent, securing business operations is more crucial than ever. Small businesses must prioritize cybersecurity to protect sensitive data and ensure smooth operations. This includes implementing robust security protocols and educating employees about best practices. With the increasing threats of cyber-attacks, having a strong cybersecurity framework helps businesses safeguard their assets and maintain trust with their customers and partners.

Positive Pay Prevents Fraud

Positive pay is an essential tool for small businesses to prevent fraud. It involves the business providing a list of authorized checks to their bank, which then cross-checks any checks presented for payment. This system helps detect and stop unauthorized transactions before they can cause significant financial damage. The use of positive pay can save businesses time and resources by preventing fraudulent activities, thereby maintaining the integrity of their financial operations and protecting their bottom line.

Link to Positive Pay Survey: Positive Pay Market Survey (neachgroup.com)

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Episode Summary
In this episode of "Wrestling Payments," Joseph Casali dives into the often-misunderstood realm of government benefit payments and their reclamation process. Highlighting a new course he's developed; Joe explains the crucial difference between the Nacha Rules and those dictated by government agencies when a beneficiary passes away. His insights illuminate the complex interactions between the law, the "Green Book" guidelines, and real-world banking practices, emphasizing the practical implications for those managing such funds.

Joe also introduces the concept of constructive knowledge, explaining its vital role in determining financial institution liability. Through compelling examples, he outlines how seemingly simple knowledge can trigger significant financial responsibilities, stressing the importance of being proactive and informed.

The episode wraps up with a call to action, inviting listeners to engage with the course that not only educates but also equips financial professionals with the tools to navigate these intricate scenarios effectively. Joe's approachable discussion aims to enhance understanding and help institutions limit their financial risks associated with government benefit reclamation.

Key Insights

  • Government Benefit Payments Are Bound by Dual Regulatory FrameworksNavigating the realm of government benefit payments demands understanding the distinct yet overlapping rules set by federal agencies and the Treasury. While agencies may deem a person "eligible" for certain payments, financial institutions must adhere strictly to the regulations, which only recognize allow benefit payments if the recipient was alive on pay day. This discrepancy creates a complex scenario, especially in situations the deaths of beneficiaries is unknown to their financial institution, leading to significant operational challenges for banks and credit unions as they reconcile these obligations and liabilities.
  • Constructive Knowledge Determines Financial Liability
  • The concept of constructive knowledge plays a critical role in managing the liability associated for government payments. Financial institutions are expected to act upon any commercially reasonable information indicating a beneficiary's death, which sets their liability from that point forward. This encompasses various scenarios where knowledge can come from direct notifications like letters from nursing homes or even more informal sources like local knowledge of a death. Ignoring such information can significantly increase the institution's financial risk and legal exposure.
  • Effective Training Reduces Risk in Payment Reclamations
    Proper training in handling reclamations is essential for reducing potential liabilities. Financial institutions must implement robust procedures to manage and respond to death notifications and other signals of beneficiary status changes. Through well-structured courses and tools, institutions can ensure their staff is equipped to adhere to both the legal framework and operational best practices, thereby minimizing financial losses and enhancing compliance with regulatory requirements.

31 Code of Federal Regulation Part 210
The GREEN BOOK
NEACHU - "Notified of Death, Now What?"

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Wrestling Payments - Wrestling with Change

Wrestling with Change

Wrestling Payments

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04/25/24 • 20 min

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Episode Summary

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, Joe Casali sits down with Charlie Kelly from Remedy Consulting. They dive into the evolving landscape of payment systems. Charlie shares insights from his vast experience, focusing on core conversions, contract negotiations, and the challenges community banks and credit unions face.

Charlie emphasizes the importance of navigating the complexities of payment system upgrades. He highlights how Remedy Consulting aids institutions in understanding their core provider's language and the broader ecosystem. This support is crucial for making informed decisions during core negotiations or considering conversions.

The conversation also explores the intricacies of connecting traditional banking systems with emerging fintech solutions. Charlie discusses the hurdles in integrating new technologies with established banking infrastructures. He stresses the balance between innovation and maintaining security and reliability in payment systems. This episode offers a glimpse into the critical role of consultancy in simplifying and guiding financial institutions through technological transitions.

Guest-at-a-Glance
Charlie Kelly
Partner at Remedy Consulting and Host of BankTalk Podcast
Remedy Consulting
Charlie Kelly brings a wealth of experience from his tenure at one of the nation's leading core providers, focusing on project management, pricing, and contracts. Now at Remedy Consulting, he specializes in helping community banks and credit unions navigate complex payment system conversions and negotiations.
LinkedIn

Key Insights
Navigating the Maze of Payment System Upgrades

Charlie Kelly discusses the intricate process involved in payment system conversions, emphasizing the common pitfalls financial institutions encounter. A significant challenge highlighted is the misalignment between digital providers and core systems, which often lack seamless integration. This disconnection can lead to costly mistakes, such as the cancellation of nearly finalized contracts due to unrecognized incompatibilities. Kelly’s expertise shines as he guides institutions through these complex negotiations, ensuring they make informed decisions that align with their technological and financial goals.

Modernizing Financial Systems: A Delicate Balance

The episode dives into the difficulties of integrating cutting-edge fintech solutions with legacy banking systems. Charlie Kelly points out the vast gap between the innovative ideas emerging from fintech startups and the reality of incorporating these into the established infrastructure of traditional banks. The biggest hurdles are the entrenched systems of larger providers, which are not easily adaptable or open to prioritizing new fintech integrations. This insight underscores the crucial role of consulting services like Remedy Consulting in facilitating this integration, ensuring that banks can innovate while maintaining the reliability and security of their payment systems.

The Crucial Link: Consultancies in Payment Innovations

Charlie highlights the essential role of consultancies in assisting community banks and credit unions with navigating the complexities of payment system upgrades and core conversions. By acting as an intermediary between these institutions and their core providers, Remedy Consulting plays a pivotal role in deciphering the jargon and technicalities of contracts. This service is invaluable for smaller institutions that might otherwise struggle to understand the full scope of their technologi

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Wrestling Payments - Patty Presta Talks Payments and Protecting the Vulnerable
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04/18/24 • 29 min

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Episode Summary
Welcome to our 25 Episode.
Before we get to the official description, this was such an enjoyable episode to record and catch up with an old "Ring" veteran. What started out as a catch-up session, turned into an amazing valuable episode, check below for some resource links.

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali welcomes Patty Presta, AAP, NCP, the Director of Education at NEACH. Patty shares her unique journey from aspiring to be a nurse to becoming a pivotal figure in the payments industry. Her transition highlights the unexpected paths that lead to rewarding careers in finance.

Patty and Joe discuss critical topics like elder abuse and human trafficking. They emphasize the importance of education and vigilance within financial institutions to prevent exploitation. Patty’s experiences from teaching to working on the front lines against financial crimes offer invaluable insights into the evolving challenges in payments.

The conversation also covers the evolution of payment systems, from direct deposits to modern AI and P2P technologies. Patty's return to NEACH marks a full circle, bringing her expertise back to where her journey in payments began. This episode sheds light on the ongoing fight against financial crime and the importance of continuous learning in the payments industry.

Guest-at-a-Glance
Patty Presta, AAP, NCP, Director of Education NEACH
Over 20 years in payments, passionate about elder and financial abuse education.
LinkedIn

Key Insights
The Unplanned Journey into Payments

Patty’s career path serves as a fascinating example of how life can take unexpected turns. Originally aspiring to be a nurse, Patty’s journey into the payments industry began with a temporary job that unexpectedly evolved into a significant role in education within NEACH. This story highlights the unpredictable nature of career paths and the importance of being open to new opportunities. Patty's transition from a secretary tasked with web development to becoming a pivotal figure in payments training underscores the role of adaptability and learning on the job in achieving professional success.

Addressing Elder Abuse and Human Trafficking in the Financial Sector

Patty brings to light the critical issues of elder abuse and human trafficking, underscoring the financial industry's role in combating these problems. With a deep-seated passion for protecting the vulnerable, she has dedicated a significant part of her career to educating financial institutions on recognizing and preventing financial exploitation. Patty’s work in creating awareness and training materials for detecting signs of abuse and trafficking within financial transactions reveals the power of education and vigilance in making a difference. This insight underscores the importance of the financial sector's proactive engagement in societal issues.

Links
https://polarisproject.org/
https://www.thorn.org/

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Wrestling Payments - Wrestling with Executives

Wrestling with Executives

Wrestling Payments

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04/11/24 • 20 min

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Episode Summary

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali dives into the complexities of the modern banking sector, focusing on the dynamic between risk management and innovation. Joe, an expert in the field, shares insights on how banks are adapting to regulatory changes and the increasing importance of cybersecurity.

The conversation shifts towards the challenges and opportunities presented by digital payments and consumer protection. Joe emphasizes the need for banks to evolve while ensuring customer safety in an increasingly digital world.

The episode concludes with a look ahead, as Joe discusses the future of financial services. He highlights the balance between embracing technological advancements and maintaining robust security measures to protect both banks and their customers. This episode provides a comprehensive overview of the current state and future direction of banking and payments.

Guest-at-a-Glance
Joseph Casali
NEACH
LinkedIn

Key Insights
The Risk of Complacency in Banking

Governor Michelle Bowman's speech highlighted the inherent risks of complacency within the banking sector, emphasizing the large regulatory burden faced by financial institutions. Bowman articulated the dual challenge banks encounter in balancing risk management and compliance efforts while striving for innovation and growth. This insight underlines the need for constant vigilance and adaptability in the face of evolving financial landscapes and regulatory expectations.

Innovating Consumer Protection in Digital Payments

The episode discusses a report from the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta on credit push fraud, underscoring the necessity for banks to update their approach to consumer protection. This includes adapting mitigation techniques to counteract authorized push payment fraud more effectively. It points to the importance of shifting strategies in consumer protection to keep pace with the changing nature of digital payments and the innovative tactics employed by fraudsters.

The Call for Regulation in Payment Apps

District Attorney Alvin Bragg's letter to payment apps like Venmo, Zelle, and Cash App, following a series of fraudulent scams, calls for immediate actions to enhance consumer protection. Bragg's recommendations, including multi-factor authentication and setting default lower limits on transactions, emphasize the urgent need for regulatory measures to address vulnerabilities in digital payment platforms. This insight reflects the ongoing challenges in balancing the convenience of instant payments with the security measures necessary to protect consumers from fraud.

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Wrestling Payments - Critical Nacha Rule Changes

Critical Nacha Rule Changes

Wrestling Payments

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04/05/24 • 29 min

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Episode Summary

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali talks with Sean Carter, President & CEO at NEACH, about the significant changes in ACH rules. They dive into the recent ballots passed with over 93% approval, focusing on the new risk management framework. This framework aims to protect the payment network from fraud, a challenge all payment systems currently face. Carter emphasizes the collective effort required to combat fraud, highlighting that the changes affect not just one party but all involved in the ACH network.

The conversation then shifts to specific rule changes, particularly the ACH credit monitoring by RDFIs. This new concept asks receiving financial institutions to do more in spotting and preventing fraud, marking a departure from the traditional focus on originators and ODFIs. Examples of past fraud incidents are discussed to illustrate the potential impact of these rules in preventing future fraud. Carter points out the importance of collaboration between RDFIs, ODFIs, and originators to effectively use these rules.

Finally, Carter stresses the urgency of implementing these changes well before the 2026 deadline. He suggests that financial institutions should not wait to adapt, given the serious implications of fraud on society, including funding for trafficking, drugs, and terrorism. The discussion concludes with the importance of keeping information up to date in the NACHA registry and leveraging technology like AI to enhance fraud detection efforts.

Guest-at-a-Glance
Sean Carter
President & CEO
NEACH

Key Insights
A United Front Against ACH Fraud

Sean Carter emphasizes the importance of a collective effort in combating fraud within the ACH network. The new ACH rules, passed with overwhelming approval, reflect this approach by not singling out any one party but rather distributing the responsibility across RDFIs, ODFIs, originators, and third-party senders. This strategy acknowledges that fraud is a complex issue that no single entity can address alone. By mandating contributions from all sides, the aim is to fortify the entire payment system against fraudulent activities, demonstrating a shift towards a more inclusive and collaborative defense mechanism within the financial ecosystem.

Enhanced Role of RDFIs in Monitoring ACH Credits

The episode dives into one of the major changes in the ACH rules: the requirement for RDFIs to monitor ACH credits more closely. This significant shift tasks RDFIs with identifying and addressing potential fraud more proactively. Previously, the focus was predominantly on the originators and ODFIs. By extending this responsibility, the new rules aim to leverage the unique position of RDFIs to spot unusual activities, such as unexpected large deposits, that might indicate fraud. This change underscores a holistic approach to fraud prevention, recognizing that effective detection requires insights from all parties involved in the transaction process.

Immediate Action Required to Combat Fraud

Despite a 2026 deadline for implementing the new ACH rule changes, Sean Carter stresses the importance of starting now. He highlights the critical nature of fraud prevention, not just for the integrity of the payment system but also for societal concerns, as fraud often funds illegal activities. By encouraging financial institutions to adopt new measures promptly, Carter underscores the notion that waiting is not an option when it comes to safeguarding against fraud. This urgency is a call to action for all entities involved in ACH transactions to review and update their processes, utilize new technologies, and ensure compliance with the evolving landscape of fin

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Wrestling Payments - Unlocking Career Growth in Payments with NEACH U
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10/19/23 • 27 min

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Episode Summary
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali sits down with Mark Dixon, the Vice President of Education at NEACH. Mark dives into his journey in the banking and payment sector, highlighting his passion for the industry and the intersections of technology, disruption, and the future of banking. He emphasizes the importance of payments in various business sectors and the excitement of navigating the ever-evolving landscape.

Mark introduces "NEACH U," a reimagined educational platform designed to cater to various professionals in the payment space. From operational roles to treasury management, compliance, and risk management, NEACH U aims to provide individualized learning paths for all. The platform's goal is twofold: to benefit organizations by enhancing their employees' knowledge and to foster professional development for individuals.

Set to launch in 2024, NEACH U promises to be a transformative tool for payment professionals, guiding them towards the next steps in their careers and offering valuable insights into the world of payments.

Guest-at-a-Glance
Guest
: Mark DIxon
What he does: VP of Education
Company: NEACH
Noteworthy: Mark Dixon: Vice President of Education at NEACH, passionate about payment evolution.
Where to find Mark: LinkedIn

Key Insights
Mark Dixon's Passionate Journey in Payments

Mark Dixon's professional trajectory in the banking and payment sector is both intriguing and inspiring. Starting his career in banking, he didn't initially envision a future in the sector. However, as he dived deeper, especially into electronic banking, he discovered a fervent passion for payments. Mark's enthusiasm is not just about the technicalities of payments but also about understanding their intersection with various business sectors and the role of technology.

Headline: Introduction of NEACH U: A Game-Changer in Payment Education

NEACH U is Mark's ambitious project, aiming to revolutionize payment education. This platform is not just another educational tool; it's designed to offer individualized learning paths for professionals in the payment space. Whether one is in operational roles, treasury management, compliance, or risk management, NEACH U promises a tailored learning experience.

NEACH U's Vision: Individual Growth and Organizational Excellence

Mark emphasizes that NEACH U is more than just a learning platform; it's a roadmap for professional growth. Recognizing the diverse paths in the payment space, from operational to strategic roles, NEACH U is designed to guide professionals based on their unique needs and aspirations. The platform will not only serve as a knowledge hub but also as a catalyst for career advancement.

Contact: [email protected]

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Wrestling Payments - Risk Management in Payments

Risk Management in Payments

Wrestling Payments

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09/06/23 • 27 min

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Episode Summary

​​In this episode, Joe Casali sits down with Sean Carter, the top man at Neach Payments Group. They dive deep into the world of risk management in payments. Sean emphasizes the power of interpersonal skills and the value of curiosity in the industry.

The talk shifts to the intricate dance between Enterprise Risk Management (ERM) and Strategic Risk Management (SRM). Both play pivotal roles in shaping the future of payments. Sean shares insights on how these concepts intertwine and their impact on the broader payment landscape.

Tune in to grasp the nuances of risk management from an industry leader. It's a conversation packed with expertise and actionable insights.

Guest-at-a-Glance
Name
: Sean Carter
What he does: President & CEO
Company: NEACH
Noteworthy: Sean Carter: Newly minted Accredited Payment Risk Professional (APRP).
Where to find Sean: LinkedIn

Key Insights
The Power of Imagination in Risk Management

Sean Carter emphasizes the importance of operations personnel in risk management. These individuals possess a wealth of institutional knowledge, allowing them to predict potential issues based on past experiences. Sean suggests that a combination of strong communication skills and the ability to envision various scenarios (imagination) can be invaluable. This imaginative foresight helps in anticipating challenges, especially those not immediately obvious.

The Role of Interpersonal Skills in Operations

Sean highlights the significance of interpersonal skills in preventing blindsides in operations. Building good relationships across departments and consistently asking questions can prevent unexpected challenges. Being inquisitive and maintaining open channels of communication can preemptively address potential issues. Moreover, making others feel important can lead to more open sharing of information.

Understanding Risk Appetite vs. Risk Tolerance

The distinction between an organization's risk appetite and risk tolerance is crucial. While risk appetite is the overall level of risk an organization is willing to accept, risk tolerance pertains to the degree of risk they're willing to take for a specific goal. Effective communication is essential to ensure everyone understands these concepts, aligning individual actions with the organization's broader risk strategy.
Remember to subscribe and send your comments to [email protected]

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Episode Summary
This episode was recorded live at the Annual Payments Management Conference, this year NEACH celebrated its 50th Anniversary.

In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali welcomes Jordan Bennett from Nacha to delve into the intricacies of risk management for ACH payments. They discuss the evolving role of the Risk Management Advisory Group and how it aids financial institutions in mitigating risks on the ACH network. In addition, Jordan shares insights the current Nacha Request for Comment on proposed Rule Changes, emphasizing the importance of feedback and adjustments to perfect the system.
The conversation takes a deeper dive into the proposed rules for combating fraud. Jordan explains the potential use of reversals to return funds to the originator, which could significantly impact how financial institutions handle fraudulent transactions. They also discuss the new use of a return code, R 17, to specifically flag suspicious transactions.
Towards the end, the discussion shifts to the future of ACH payments, with Jordan and Joe pondering the possibility of continuous settlement and the implications for risk management. The episode concludes with Jordan's advice for professionals in operations, encouraging them to stay aware of organizational changes and fill gaps where necessary.
Guest:
Jordan Bennett, AAP, APRP
Senior Director, Network Risk Management
Nacha
Key Insights
The Evolving Role of the Risk Management Advisory Group
The Risk Management Advisory Group plays a crucial role in mitigating risks on the ACH network. Jordan explains how the group is continuously refining rules and regulations to ensure the safety and efficiency of transactions. The process involves gathering feedback and making necessary adjustments to perfect the system. This insight underscores the importance of dynamic risk management in the rapidly evolving payments industry.
Proposed Rules for Combating Fraud
Jordan discusses the potential use of ACH REVERSALs to return funds to the originator in cases of fraudulent transactions. This proposed rule could significantly change how financial institutions handle fraud. Additionally, the introduction of a new return code, R17, is discussed. This code would specifically flag suspicious transactions, providing another layer of security in the ACH payment process.
The Future of ACH Payments
The conversation shifts towards the future of ACH payments, with Jordan and Joe pondering the possibility of continuous settlement. This could have significant implications for risk management in the payments industry. Jordan also encourages professionals in operations to stay aware of organizational changes and fill gaps where necessary, highlighting the importance of adaptability in this rapidly changing field.

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Episode Summary
In this episode of Wrestling Payments, host Joe Casali welcomes Nanci McKenzie and James Rowe from Affirmative Technology. They dive into the challenges of creating a risk rating for originators in the payments industry.

The conversation highlights the importance of risk management in financial institutions. Nanci and James discuss the need for automated solutions to handle the increasing volume of transactions. They emphasize that manual methods and spreadsheets are no longer sufficient. The discussion also touches on the role of regulators and the pressure they put on institutions to have robust risk management systems in place.

The episode concludes with a look at the broader economic landscape. James, an economist, shares his insights on the potential impact of rising interest rates and the debt ceiling issue on financial institutions. He also offers his perspective on the current state of the economy and its implications for banks. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of risk management and the payments industry.
Podcast Experts
Name: Nanci McKenzie and James Rowe

What they do: Executive Vice President of Compliance and Product Strategy and Chairman of the Affirmative Technology Board

Company: Affirmative Technologies

Noteworthy: An industry veteran, Nanci McKenzie is known for her expertise in risk management and compliance in the payments industry. / An economist by training, Rowe specializes in leveraging data analytics to solve key business problems in the financial sector.

Where to find them: Nanci: LinkedIn|James: LinkedIn
Key Insights

Automated Risk Rating for Originators

Wrestling Payments delves into the need for automated risk rating for originators in the payments industry. Nanci and James discuss how their tool, Navigator, can provide accurate ratings for originators based on their transaction history. This system allows financial institutions to prioritize their focus on high-risk originators, enabling efficient risk management. The tool also allows for monitoring originators' risk transition, providing valuable insights into their business activities.

Embracing Data Analytics
James, an economist by training, emphasizes the importance of embracing data analytics in financial institutions. He demystifies terms like AI, machine learning, and big data, explaining that these are simply automated statistical techniques that have been around for decades. James encourages financial institutions not to be intimidated by these terms but to leverage them to make effective decisions.

Regulatory Pressure and Risk Management
The podcast also highlights the increasing regulatory pressure on financial institutions to have robust risk management systems. Nanci points out that regulators are asking institutions how they are risk grading their customers and are taking enforcement actions based on their findings. This underscores the importance of efficient risk management systems, such as the one provided by Affirmative Technologies.

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FAQ

How many episodes does Wrestling Payments have?

Wrestling Payments currently has 44 episodes available.

What topics does Wrestling Payments cover?

The podcast is about Payments, Podcasts, Technology, Business and Careers.

What is the most popular episode on Wrestling Payments?

The episode title 'The Next Level in Instant Payments Roll Out' is the most popular.

What is the average episode length on Wrestling Payments?

The average episode length on Wrestling Payments is 28 minutes.

How often are episodes of Wrestling Payments released?

Episodes of Wrestling Payments are typically released every 13 days, 10 hours.

When was the first episode of Wrestling Payments?

The first episode of Wrestling Payments was released on Mar 28, 2023.

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