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The Words Matter Podcast with Oliver Thomson - Psychologically informed practice - How far we’ve come and how far we haven’t with Steven Vogel

Psychologically informed practice - How far we’ve come and how far we haven’t with Steven Vogel

11/15/20 • 75 min

The Words Matter Podcast with Oliver Thomson

Welcome to another episode of The Words Matter Podcast.

In this episode I speak with Steven Vogel. Steven is Deputy Vice-Chancellor (Research) at the University College of Osteopathy and Editor in Chief of the International Journal of Osteopathic Medicine.

He has twice been a member of National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) Guideline Development Groups formulating NICE clinical guidelines for back pain and sciatica.

Steven led the large Clinical Risk Osteopathy and Management (CROaM) study which examined adverse events and outcomes related to osteopathic interventions.

His main research interests focus on back pain, clinicians’ beliefs and attitudes and more recently, reassurance, communication and consent, safety and manual therapy, patient reported outcomes, self-management rehabilitation strategies used in practice with people with low back pain, and the effects of cognitive and affective reassurance.

In this episode we talk about:

  • What constitutive ethical and professionally agnostic musculoskeletal care (see Steve's paper here).
  • The early research into psychology of LBP, of which he was a crucial part (see here here and here).
  • The cyclical nature of current arguments (hands on/of/psycho/manipulation etc).
  • The different levels (fizzy drink scale) of psychologically-informed practice, and the psychological processes involved in clinical practice.
  • The challenges of developing these skills in clinicians, and the questions up for debate such as 'what does it mean to be BPS orientated' and 'what sorts of training bests develops those competencies'?
  • The frequent situation where psychological interventions have high face validity, make sense to us an clinicians but show small effect sizes when clinically trialled.
  • We talk about his seminal 2013 systematic review work on cognitive and affective reassurance.
  • Signs of progress and lack of progress of for PIP
  • The challenge of measuring BPS-ness and the empirical actions and observable behaviours associated with such a clinical orientation.

Steven is is perhaps the most measured, rational and composed individual I know. He remains totally zen even when being faced with some the highest intellectual dishonesty in the manual-physical-osteopathy spheres.

It was an absolute pleasure speaking with Steve about his seminal work as a pioneer of psychologically-informed musculoskeletal care, and reflect on how far we have come and how much further we have still to go.

Find Steven on Twitter @UCODVC_Research

If you liked the podcast, you'll love the Words Matter online course in effective language and communication when managing back pain - ideal for all MSK therapists and students (discounts for students available)

Follow Words Matter on:

Instagram @Wordsmatter_education @TheWordsMatterPodcast

Twitter @WordsClinical

Facebook Words Matter - Improving Clinical Communication

★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★
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Welcome to another episode of The Words Matter Podcast.

In this episode I speak with Steven Vogel. Steven is Deputy Vice-Chancellor (Research) at the University College of Osteopathy and Editor in Chief of the International Journal of Osteopathic Medicine.

He has twice been a member of National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) Guideline Development Groups formulating NICE clinical guidelines for back pain and sciatica.

Steven led the large Clinical Risk Osteopathy and Management (CROaM) study which examined adverse events and outcomes related to osteopathic interventions.

His main research interests focus on back pain, clinicians’ beliefs and attitudes and more recently, reassurance, communication and consent, safety and manual therapy, patient reported outcomes, self-management rehabilitation strategies used in practice with people with low back pain, and the effects of cognitive and affective reassurance.

In this episode we talk about:

  • What constitutive ethical and professionally agnostic musculoskeletal care (see Steve's paper here).
  • The early research into psychology of LBP, of which he was a crucial part (see here here and here).
  • The cyclical nature of current arguments (hands on/of/psycho/manipulation etc).
  • The different levels (fizzy drink scale) of psychologically-informed practice, and the psychological processes involved in clinical practice.
  • The challenges of developing these skills in clinicians, and the questions up for debate such as 'what does it mean to be BPS orientated' and 'what sorts of training bests develops those competencies'?
  • The frequent situation where psychological interventions have high face validity, make sense to us an clinicians but show small effect sizes when clinically trialled.
  • We talk about his seminal 2013 systematic review work on cognitive and affective reassurance.
  • Signs of progress and lack of progress of for PIP
  • The challenge of measuring BPS-ness and the empirical actions and observable behaviours associated with such a clinical orientation.

Steven is is perhaps the most measured, rational and composed individual I know. He remains totally zen even when being faced with some the highest intellectual dishonesty in the manual-physical-osteopathy spheres.

It was an absolute pleasure speaking with Steve about his seminal work as a pioneer of psychologically-informed musculoskeletal care, and reflect on how far we have come and how much further we have still to go.

Find Steven on Twitter @UCODVC_Research

If you liked the podcast, you'll love the Words Matter online course in effective language and communication when managing back pain - ideal for all MSK therapists and students (discounts for students available)

Follow Words Matter on:

Instagram @Wordsmatter_education @TheWordsMatterPodcast

Twitter @WordsClinical

Facebook Words Matter - Improving Clinical Communication

★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Previous Episode

undefined - Making memories - shaping children's future pain with Dr Melanie Noel

Making memories - shaping children's future pain with Dr Melanie Noel

Welcome to another episode of The Words Matter Podcast.

On this episode I'm speaking with pediatric pain scientist and psychologist Dr Melanie Noel.

Melanie is an Associate Professor of Clinical Psychology at the University of Calgary, and a full member of the Alberta Children's Hospital Research Institute and the Hotchkiss Brain Institute.

She teaches and supervises within the CPA-accredited Clinical Psychology Graduate Program in the Department of Psychology at the University of Calgary.

And her behavioural research lab is based within the Vi Riddell Children's Pain and Rehabilitation Centre at Alberta Children's Hospital.

Melanie completed her PhD in Clinical Psychology and Dalhousie University Canada, and held a Post-Doctoral Fellowship in Pediatric Pain Research at the Seattle Children's Research Institute.

The overarching aim of her research is to understand and harness the influence of cognitive-behavioral factors, like pain memories, on children’s pain trajectories using developmental frameworks. Her interests cover the areas of acute pain (such as painful medical procedures such as surgeries or vaccinations) and chronic pain in a variety of clinical and healthy populations.

Her clinical interests include child clinical and pediatric psychology populations, with particular interest in the intersection between children's physical and mental health.

So in this episode we talk about:

  • public health messaging in relation to pain, in particular the influence of these messages on children.
  • the nature and prevalence of paediatric chronic pain, and some of the key predictors for such pain states.
  • diagnostic uncertainty for children with chronic pain and their parents.
  • her research in the area of children's anxiety and pain memories as cognitive-affective mechanisms underlying trajectories of pediatric pain and future pain as adults.
  • the dynamic and dyadic relationship between a parent’s mood and behavioural responses to a child’s chronic pain and how parents’ protective responses (such as pain catastrophising) influence a child’s pain experience.
  • her strategies to reconstruct and re-frame a Childs pain experience to engender more positive behaviours and attitudes towards pain.
  • At the end of the show you’ll hear our surprise that Melanie and I share a common experience, with her having triplets and me being a triplet.

So this was an absolutely fascinating talk, with someone really at the edge of knowledge in this crucial field. Melanie’s sheer enthusiasm and passion for her work is a joy to listen to as well as her compassion for the participants and patients that are involved in her work.

On many instances the conversation is directed to the role of parents, rather than clinicians; but this episode has huge value for those without children, and significant value even if you never see children in your clinical work.

If you seek to obtain an understanding of where your adult patient’s pain beliefs, emotional responses and behaviours may originate from this podcast offers a real insight.

Find Melanie on Twitter @MelanieNoel

If you liked the podcast, you'll love the Words Matter online course in effective language and communication when managing back pain - ideal for all MSK therapists and students (discounts for students available)

Follow Words Matter on:

Instagram @Wordsmatter_education @TheWordsMatterPodcast

Twitter @WordsClinical

Facebook Words Matter - Improving Clinical Communication

Next Episode

undefined - Saying the unsayable and thinking the unthinkable - a critical look forward with Prof. David Nicholls

Saying the unsayable and thinking the unthinkable - a critical look forward with Prof. David Nicholls

Welcome to another episode of The Words Matter Podcast.

Today I’m speaking with Professor David Nicholls. David is a Professor in the School of Clinical Sciences at AUT University in Auckland, New Zealand. He is a physiotherapist, lecturer, researcher and writer, with a passion for critical thinking in and around the physical therapies.

David is the founder of the Critical Physiotherapy Network, an organisation that promotes the use of cultural studies, education, history, philosophy, sociology, and a range of other disciplines in the study of the profession’s past, present and future.

His research work focuses on the critical history of physiotherapy and considers how physiotherapy might need to adapt to the changing economy of health care in the 21st century.

He has published more than 35 peer-reviewed articles and 17 book chapters, many as first author. He is also very active on social media, writing more than 650 blogposts for criticalphysio.net in the last five years.

In 2017 he published the book ‘The End of Physiotherapy’ which is a critical history of physiotherapy, and is working on follow-up book called ‘Physiotherapy Othererwise’. He’s also just co-edited a book called ‘Mobilizing Knowledge in Physiotherapy: Critical Reflections on Foundations and Practices’.

His work on the professionalisation and socialisation of physiotherapy and crucially questioning where it’s come from and where It may be going (if going anywhere at all) resonates with my thinking about osteopathy and the social and historical circumstances which shaped its development and maintains its current practice.

In this episode we talk about:

  • The role of qualitative research in helping to carve a new way of being as professionals and the revised values, identities and practices associated with this shift (including this paper by Elizabeth Adams St. Pierre on a 'post qualitative research' future).
  • Building healthcare practice from the ground up with a new set of foundations and principles
  • The tension which often finds its way into curricular when biomedical subjects sit alongside subjects social, psychological and humanistic topics.
  • The person/body-as-machine and how this contrasts with a phenomenological view of the person of which he argues for.
  • How critical theory has shaped much of his analysis and arguments of physiotherapy, such as the Impact of power on cultures, ideological-orientated enquiry (such as quantitative research), and the historical contexts within which actions takes place.
  • The ‘physiotherapy paradox’
  • The original questions asked by society and answered by physiotherapy and osteopathy, which catalysed the emergence and development of the respective professions.
  • The social, political and economic structure which led to the development and subsequent maintenance of these professions.
  • We then pose that if the original questions and needs of society have change then so should the shape, scope and purpose of professions.
  • The post-professional era, which we may all be on the cusp of.

So this was a complete delight taking to David. His analysis of physiotherapy is forensic, yet the entire time he never once forgets the patient, and the front and centre role they deserve to play in both healthcare practice and purpose.

As you’ll notice when listening we wander (wade) thorough a range of related topics for over 90 minutes, and if wasn’t for the 11 hour time difference - with him needing to commence his day, and me needing to end it, we would have gone on.

Find Dave on Twitter @CriticalPhysio and @DaveNicholls3

If you liked the podcast, you'll love the Words Matter online course in effective language and communication when managing back pain - ideal for all MSK therapists and students.

Follow Words Matter on:

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