
Mentors, Mindsets, Missions, and Margherita: Vernon & Richard's First Ask Us Anything Session
06/25/24 • 45 min
In this episode, Vernon and Richard answer questions from their audience. They discuss what they would do if they weren't in software testing, the primary mission of a tester, advice for their younger selves, their stance on pineapple on pizza, and their preferences as trainers, mentors, consultants, and coaches. In this conversation, Vernon and Richard discuss various topics related to testing and quality.
They explore the meaning of quality and how it can vary depending on the context and individual perspectives. They also discuss the importance of testing and whether there are situations where testing may not be necessary. Additionally, they delve into the concept of a testing mindset and whether it is something that individuals are born with or can be developed. Finally, they reflect on what advice they would give to their younger selves, focusing on the themes of confidence, self-kindness, and self-care.
Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:
- 01:42 - Joëlle Burkhardt
- Joëlle's LinkedIn
- 06:41 - James Thomas
- 09:15 - AJ Wilson
- Aj's LinkedIn
- 14:32 - Kelsey's story about relating the impact of software problems to real humans
- 15:10 - Mark Gillott
- Mark's LinkedIn
- 15:34 - Template letter for banning pineapple on pizza
- 17:10 - Olivier Banal
- Olivier's LinkedIn
- 18:25 - Leigh Rathbone
- Leigh's LinkedIn
- 22:30 - Deb Sherwood
- Deb's LinkedIn
- 22:42 - Jerry Weinberg
- Jerry's Wikipedia page (his books are highly recommended)
- 23:46 - Joep Schuurkes
- 28:36 - Mark Tomlinson
- 32:45 - Anna Royzman
- Anna's LinkedIn
- 38:42 - Melissa Fisher
- Melissa's LinkedIn
- 38:42 - In case you need to know what the TARDIS is, please read this!
- 40:59 - David Goggins (definitely watch/listen to his stuff with headphones on or with no kids around because 🤬)
- David's cookie jar philosophy
- David's website
- 43:47 - End of year reflection resources
- Dickie Bush & Nicolas Cole's Yearly Review Process
00:00 - Intro
01:42 - Joëlle Burkhardt: What would you do if you weren't in software testing?
06:41 - James Thomas: You have to summarise what a tester's primary mission for a team is in a snappy one-liner that applies across contexts. What's your one-liner?
09:15 - Aj Wilson: What advice would you give the version of yourself, that was 2 years into software testing if you could, what would older wiser Richard advise new blood Richard?
15:10 - Mark Gillott: Why is pineapple on pizza still not illegal?
18:25 - Leigh Rathbone: What do you prefer, being a trainer (providing instruction and direction), a mentor, a consultant, or a coach?
22:30 - Deb Sherwood: What does quality mean for you?
28:36 - Mark Tomlinson: To test, or not to test.
32:45 - Anna Royzman: Testing mindset - are you born with it?
38:42 - Melissa Fisher: If you could jump in a tardis and go back in time, what would you tell your younger self?
In this episode, Vernon and Richard answer questions from their audience. They discuss what they would do if they weren't in software testing, the primary mission of a tester, advice for their younger selves, their stance on pineapple on pizza, and their preferences as trainers, mentors, consultants, and coaches. In this conversation, Vernon and Richard discuss various topics related to testing and quality.
They explore the meaning of quality and how it can vary depending on the context and individual perspectives. They also discuss the importance of testing and whether there are situations where testing may not be necessary. Additionally, they delve into the concept of a testing mindset and whether it is something that individuals are born with or can be developed. Finally, they reflect on what advice they would give to their younger selves, focusing on the themes of confidence, self-kindness, and self-care.
Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:
- 01:42 - Joëlle Burkhardt
- Joëlle's LinkedIn
- 06:41 - James Thomas
- 09:15 - AJ Wilson
- Aj's LinkedIn
- 14:32 - Kelsey's story about relating the impact of software problems to real humans
- 15:10 - Mark Gillott
- Mark's LinkedIn
- 15:34 - Template letter for banning pineapple on pizza
- 17:10 - Olivier Banal
- Olivier's LinkedIn
- 18:25 - Leigh Rathbone
- Leigh's LinkedIn
- 22:30 - Deb Sherwood
- Deb's LinkedIn
- 22:42 - Jerry Weinberg
- Jerry's Wikipedia page (his books are highly recommended)
- 23:46 - Joep Schuurkes
- 28:36 - Mark Tomlinson
- 32:45 - Anna Royzman
- Anna's LinkedIn
- 38:42 - Melissa Fisher
- Melissa's LinkedIn
- 38:42 - In case you need to know what the TARDIS is, please read this!
- 40:59 - David Goggins (definitely watch/listen to his stuff with headphones on or with no kids around because 🤬)
- David's cookie jar philosophy
- David's website
- 43:47 - End of year reflection resources
- Dickie Bush & Nicolas Cole's Yearly Review Process
00:00 - Intro
01:42 - Joëlle Burkhardt: What would you do if you weren't in software testing?
06:41 - James Thomas: You have to summarise what a tester's primary mission for a team is in a snappy one-liner that applies across contexts. What's your one-liner?
09:15 - Aj Wilson: What advice would you give the version of yourself, that was 2 years into software testing if you could, what would older wiser Richard advise new blood Richard?
15:10 - Mark Gillott: Why is pineapple on pizza still not illegal?
18:25 - Leigh Rathbone: What do you prefer, being a trainer (providing instruction and direction), a mentor, a consultant, or a coach?
22:30 - Deb Sherwood: What does quality mean for you?
28:36 - Mark Tomlinson: To test, or not to test.
32:45 - Anna Royzman: Testing mindset - are you born with it?
38:42 - Melissa Fisher: If you could jump in a tardis and go back in time, what would you tell your younger self?
Previous Episode

Playing in the Workplace and Killer Bugs
In this episode of the Vernon Richard Show, Vernon and Richard discuss alternative names for the show and reflect on their recent activities. They talk about the Leeds Testing Atelier conference and highlight some of the workshops and talks they attended. They discuss the importance of play in the workplace and the impact of bugs in software development. They also mention the Post Office Horizon scandal and the need to consider the human impact of software failures.
The conversation covered various topics including testing chatbots, the importance of accessibility and user flow mapping. The speakers discussed their experiences with chatbots, highlighting both positive and negative interactions. They also talked about the significance of screen readers and the need for proper web app design to improve accessibility. User flow mapping was mentioned as a useful technique for building a joint team understanding of work tasks. The conversation also touched on the challenges of communication with anxiety and the benefits of being open about mental health in the workplace.
Various other topics were also discussed including reducing anxiety in the workplace, the concept of spoon theory, and the balance between speed and quality in software development. The speakers discussed the importance of building relationships and understanding how to communicate effectively to reduce anxiety. They also explored the idea of spoon theory, which relates to managing energy levels and prioritizing tasks. Lastly, they delved into the challenge of achieving both speed and quality in software development, emphasizing the need for a learning mindset and continuous improvement.
Description Generated by AI
Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:
- 00:00 - James Thomas
- 02:42 - The Testing Atelier Conference
- Their website
- Their YouTube channel
- 05:10 - Jit Gosai
- Jit's Leeds Testing Atelier post
- Jit's Leeds Testing Atelier talk
- Jit's blog
- Jit's Quality Engineering Newsletter
- Jit's LinkedIn
- 05:43 - Elly Gausden
- Elly's LinkedIn
- 08:03 - The Battleships board game
- 09:00 - The Colt Express board game
- 11:02 - Clare Norman
- Clare's LinkedIn
- 11:44 - Lego Serious Play Training
- 11:56 - Rich's Lego Automation workshop
- 13:33 - Elliot Thurland
- 13:38 - The Post Office Horizon scandal
- 13:53 - James Christie
- James' blog
- James' body of work regarding the Post Office scandal
- 16:30 - BBC Radio 4 series about the Post Office Scandal
- 16:35 - 4 part television drama for ITV
- 17:48 - The Nightmare Headline game is described in Elisabeth Hendrickson's excellent book Explore It!
- 18:43 - Bug Advocacy
- The Association for Software Testing (AST) flavour of the course
- The Black Box Software Testing training programs in collaboration with Altom and Cem Kaner
- 19:20 - Kelsey Hightower
Next Episode

How No-Code Test Tools, Technical Leadership & Glue Work Impact Software Quality
In this conversation, Richard and Vernon discuss the need for manual test cases and manual testing in the future, particularly in the context of the rise of no code automation and AI.
They explore the underlying skills and activities involved in testing, such as critical thinking, analysis, communication, and understanding oracles and heuristics. They also touch on the importance of context and problem-solving in determining the appropriate testing approach. The conversation highlights the value of automation as a means to offload effort and gather information, rather than as an end in itself. In this conversation, Richard and Vernon discuss the importance of automation in testing and how it helps confirm the tester's knowledge of the system.
They also explore the concepts of glue work, quiet quitting, and quality engineering. Vernon shares his upcoming talk on setting quality engineers up for success and the challenges they face in organisations. They discuss the positioning of testers and the need for a cultural shift towards quality engineering. They invite listeners to share their thoughts and feedback on the topics discussed.
00:00 - ⚽️ Footy (1 min)
00:39 - Intro
01:54 - How will low-code and no-code automation tools impact the need for manual testers and manual test cases?
07:50 - How does Generative AI and/or Large Language Models (LLMs) change the answer?
20:39 - Issac Asmimov tangent!
21:18 - SPOILER ALERT! PLEASE SKIP IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THE INCREDIBLE ISAAC ASIMOV STORY "PROFESSION" (I HOPE BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO READ IT YOURSELF!)
24:27 - SPOILER END!!!
33:07 - Vernon's talk: How We're Setting Up QEs To Fail
Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:
- 07:50 - AI, Generative AI and Large Language Models (LLMs)
- Useful material:
- Microsoft course AI for Beginners
- Useful material:
- 07:50 - Dr Tariq King
- Tariq's LinkedIn
- 07:50 - Melissa Eaden
- Melissa's LinkedIn
- 09:52 - The book AI-Assisted Testing by Mark Winteringham
- 10:53 - Knowledge work
- Our previous discussion on Knowledge Work in Episode 1
- A definition of knowledge work from Wikipedia
- 13:59 - Vernon's Scripting Vs Exploring workshop he delivered at the European Testing Conference (ETC)
- 14:03 - ETC (organised by Maaret Pyhäjärvi) is now sadly on hiatus
- 27:26 - Doug Hoffman and High Volume Automated Testing (HiVAT)
- An explanation of HiVAT by Cem Kaner
- Doug's LinkedIn
- 33:25 - The Agile Yorkshire meetup organised by Royd Brayshay
- The Agile Yorkshire website
- Royd's LinkedIn
- 33:59 - Cassandra H. Leung
- 34:22 - Tanya Reilly
- Tanya's website
- Tanya's Glue Work presentation which you can read or watch
- Tanya's LinkedIn
- 37:22 - "What Is Quiet Quitting?" a BBC News article describing the phenomenon
- 38:23 - Jenna Charlton
- Jenna's LinkedIn
- The presentation I referred to is called: "Imperfect Agile: Lessons Learned From Embracing The Journey And Ditching The Rules". It was great and I'll see if Jenna is willing and able to share a link to it as soon as I can🙂
- 39:17 - Stuart Day
- Stu's Quality Talks podcast that he co-hosts with Chris Henderson
- Stu's LinkedIn
- Chris's Linkedin
- 43:30 - Anna Baik
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