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The Mould Show

The Mould Show

Dr Cameron Jones

This podcast will help you take control of your indoor air quality at home or at the office. Learn how to reduce your exposure to mould toxins especially after water damage as well as minimise harm caused by other environmental pollutants. Your host, Dr Cameron Jones, PhD is a recognised authority on mould in the built environment and a widely published academic and public health advocate. The Mould Show brings you practical information, expert interviews and research breakthroughs you can use each week.
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Goodpods has curated a list of the 10 best The Mould Show episodes, ranked by the number of listens and likes each episode have garnered from our listeners. If you are listening to The Mould Show for the first time, there's no better place to start than with one of these standout episodes. If you are a fan of the show, vote for your favorite The Mould Show episode by adding your comments to the episode page.

Science is all about observation and forming hypotheses to answer questions. For scientists like myself, I’m interested in how the environment affects health, and specifically, how water-damaged buildings and exposure to poor indoor air quality can affect quality of life. For this week on The Mould Show, we're going to be talking about fungal mycotoxins and myalgic encephalomyelitis termed ME for short and chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS).
The reason I've chosen this topic is that I've met a family whom I've now done three separate mould inspections for. Why this is unusual is that the symptoms experienced by the female occupant and her daughter are classic ME/CFS symptoms. Across all 3 of the different properties hidden mould problems were discovered. That information in itself was useful for this family and helped them to break their lease due to the fact that there was verified mould present. However, that's not the point of this podcast and even the positive mould confirmation as an environmental trigger didn’t help the mother and daughter from understanding why they reacted so strongly when indoors. They thought they were going crazy, since how could 3 different properties cause them so much trouble? They couldn’t understand why some buildings caused no issues, and the 3 they’d chosen to rent all set them off?
This has bothered me all year. I know mould is a huge issue for some people – but what exactly might be going on for THIS family?
A very interesting article on Substack focuses on his experience with chronic pain and ME/CFS and how after 25 years of suffering, he discovered by chance, following a recommendation from a friend to read a book that talked about the connection between ME and chronic fatigue syndrome and mitochondrial dysfunction. So that is the true focus of the topic today.
• Could exposure to fungal mycotoxins be the reason why they were tired and experiencing pain?
• Could this be the reason you’re tired? Is this another aspect to environmental illness?
• And could this be classified as Myalgic Encephalomyelitis or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)?
• Are there any patient-specific tests to verify ME/CFS or mould exposure and what can be done to alleviate the symptoms?
Firstly, let's define what ME/CFS is. There are three core symptoms + at least one or more other symptoms which include:
1. an inability to participate in routine activities that would have been possible before becoming ill and that lasts for greater than six months.
2. the fatigue which is also a primary symptom tends to worsen after physical, mental or emotional effort.
3. and does not resolve after sleep, termed ‘unrefreshing sleep’.
Other problems include:
a) an inability to concentrate or memory impairment and/or
b) something called orthostatic intolerance. This means that when people stand up, they feel lightheaded or dizzy and can even faint.
The family that moved into those three different properties all complained that after a few days of occupying the mould-contaminated building the wife especially experienced episodes of unexpected fainting and collapsing into her husband's arms.
Those 3 inspections coupled with reading the Substack article led me to investigate further whether there was any published literature, focusing on exposure to fungal cells or their mycotoxins in the ME/CFS literature.
Very recently a publication appeared in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health that has looked at exactly this topic. These scientists looked at the levels of Aspergillus toxins like aflatoxin, ochratoxin, and gliotoxin in the urine of 236 ME/CFS patients who had a known exposure to mould from water-damaged buildings.
The evidence from two types of urine mycotoxin testing from Real-Time

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The Mould Show - Does mould harm children's health?
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01/14/22 • 26 min

I'm often asked whether mould affects children's health? I thought this would be an appropriate topic to kick off the new year for The Mould Show in 2022. In approaching this topic, I'm going to review some of the key symptoms associated with exposure to mould and then provide you with an easy visual guide that you can use to not only remember the typical mould symptoms but the causes and effects but that may be helpful when describing indoor air quality issues in your home or workplace.
We all know that unexpected weather increasingly contributes to mould problems indoors in addition to water leaks and home dilapidation problems. In turn, most of us understand that moulds grow on wet surfaces and release their spores into the air. It’s important to remember that mycotoxin levels inside water-damaged buildings are sometimes 1000-fold higher than the mould count. It's also known that 50% of fungal growth can be hidden and is missed by mould testing according to the EPA.
Find out what the key research papers say about mould and your child's health?
REFERENCES:
Campbell AW, Watson P. Mold, Mycotoxins, and their Effects in Children. Altern Ther Health Med. 2021 Jan;27(1):8-10. PMID: 33609089.
Campbell AW, Decena K. The Brain and Mycotoxins. Altern Ther Health Med. 2020 Nov;26(6):8-11. PMID: 33609092.
Campbell AW. Molds and Mycotoxins: A Brief Review. Altern Ther Health Med. 2016 Jul;22(4):8-11. PMID: 27548484.
Theoharides TC. Mold and Immunity. Clin Ther. 2018 Jun;40(6):882-884. doi: 10.1016/j.clinthera.2018.05.005. Epub 2018 May 30. PMID: 29859636.
Spengler JD, Jaakkola JJ, Parise H, Katsnelson BA, Privalova LI, Kosheleva AA. Housing characteristics and children's respiratory health in the Russian Federation. Am J Public Health. 2004 Apr;94(4):657-62. doi: 10.2105/ajph.94.4.657. PMID: 15054021; PMCID: PMC1448314.
Jedrychowski W, Maugeri U, Perera F, Stigter L, Jankowski J, Butscher M, Mroz E, Flak E, Skarupa A, Sowa A. Cognitive function of 6-year old children exposed to mold-contaminated homes in early postnatal period. Prospective birth cohort study in Poland. Physiol Behav. 2011 Oct 24;104(5):989-95. doi: 10.1016/j.physbeh.2011.06.019. Epub 2011 Jul 8. PMID: 21763705; PMCID: PMC3758954.
Szumilas M. Explaining odds ratios [published correction appears in J Can Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 2015 Winter;24(1):58]. J Can Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 2010;19(3):227-229.
Wong CT, Wais J, Crawford DA. Prenatal exposure to common environmental factors affects brain lipids and increases risk of developing autism spectrum disorders. Eur J Neurosci. 2015 Nov;42(10):2742-60. doi: 10.1111/ejn.13028. Epub 2015 Sep 19. PMID: 26215319.

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If you're dealing with water damage building interiors, or just wondering what is the best way to clean textiles and clothing that might have become mould contaminated - you might be thinking, why can't I just put them all into the washing machine? Your next question might be: is there something I can do to the washing cycle that will help reduce the population of any germs that might be on those textiles? The answer is yes, there is an optimal way of washing your clothing to remove specific germs like classes of fungi that cause skin and nail infections. These fungi are termed dermatophytes and are superficial fungal infections that colonize the skin, hair or nails. This group of fungi thrive in moist areas of the skin and are easily transferred to clothing and towels and they are also found in soil. The statistics around dermatophytes report that 20 to 25% of the world's population is currently infected with a dermatophyte fungus. A paper that was published in late May 2022, looked at whether you could freeze material contaminated with dermatophyte fungi, or heat them up in a laundromat or domestic dryer, or whether it was best to wash them – and if so, what’s the best way to reduce the viability of these dermatophytes? This is an interesting question because although dermatophyte fungi are specific causative agents of skin, hair and nail infections they nevertheless represent a class of fungi that if we understand how they respond to the washing cycle - then this could extend to other types of fungi found in the home, on the floor, or on porous personal items of personal property that might benefit from being washed. So the central question of this live stream is: hot cycle versus cold cycle versus heat drying versus freezing - which is better? To answer this question, I'm going to summarize the key findings of a paper that came out in the Journal of Fungi which looked at how to test between these different treatments. What the scientists did was deliberately contaminate gauze pads with three of the most common fungi that affect humans (Trichophyton tonsurans, Trichophyton rubrum and Trichophyton interdigitale). We know the effects of these fungi when they attack feet and other moist skin areas and cause, for example, Athlete's Foot. We should also respect the fact that these fungi are easily transmitted. Think – of contact with infected individuals or even skin contact with inanimate objects like flooring. And so what the scientists did was they deliberately infected small gauze pads and then cleaned them in different ways. The. They looked at the recovery rate for the dermatophyte fungi. Successful cleaning meant there were no fungi recovered. The first treatment looked at how temperature and cleaning time impacted on fungal recovery. The next question for the washing machine method was whether adding detergent helps? Another cleaning method looked at whether freezing the textile gauze pad could kill the fungi? The results are compelling:•Low temperature washing for example, at 40 degrees Celsius for 100 minutes with or without detergent did not reduce the viability of Trichophyton fungi. •Increasing the temperature to either 60 degrees Celsius or 90 degrees Celsius for either 100 minutes or 150 minutes resulted in the loss of viability for Trichophyton fungi. •The higher temperature was effective with or without detergent. •Unfortunately, heat drying the contaminated material in either a domestic machine or a laundromat machine for anywhere from 10 minutes to 150 minutes, did not reduce the population viability of Trichophyton fungi. •And somewhat counter-intuitively, it was not possible to freeze the fungus and cause it to stop growing even if freezing was carried out for one day, two days, or even seven days – the persistent viability of the Trichophyton fungi was preserved. The take-home message, therefore, was that domestic washing machines with or without detergent are hig

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The Mould Show - Lactoferrin and Covid - What You Need To Know
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10/08/21 • 21 min

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The Mould Show - The Relationship Between Germs And Bed Linen
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08/06/21 • 14 min

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The Mould Show - Can Mould Cause Depression?
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07/15/20 • 40 min

I received an email the other day from a client with bad news informing me that his wife has breast cancer. He told me that she had suffered from depression ever since reluctantly moving into a property that had a severe water damage problem and that had been concealed by the real estate agent. This got me thinking about all the research talking about mould exposure and mood disorders like anxiety and depression and even IQ.

In this week’s Livestream, I’m going to review 6 key areas where mental health problems can occur due to mould and water damage:

1. Families that know about mould and water damage

2. Disaster recovery workers

3. The elderly

4. Children and pre-adolescents

5. The immune system. What’s going on inside your body?

6. Tenancy

Is depression the hidden epidemic often not spoken about when discussing building-specific factors surrounding mould and adverse indoor air quality from aeroallergens and other microbes?

REFERENCES:

Literature review of current research on health effects and accepted guidelines for the management of indoor mould and water damage in the built environment. (2013). ACNEM Journal. 32(3): 10 - 16.

Neuropsychological performance of patients following mold exposure. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12584073/

The neurological significance of abnormal natural killer cell activity in chronic toxigenic mold exposures. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14625399/

Indoor mold exposure associated with neurobehavioral and pulmonary impairment: a preliminary report. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15143851/

Psychological, neuropsychological, and electrocortical effects of mixed mold exposure. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15259424/

Cognitive impairment associated with toxigenic fungal exposure: a replication and extension of previous findings. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15477176/

Interventions to improve children's health by improving the housing environment. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15742671/

Dampness and mold in the home and depression: an examination of mold-related illness and perceived control of one's home as possible depression pathways. - PubMed - NCBIhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17761567/

Quality of life of patients with asthma related to damp and moldy work environments. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22407188/

Indoor factors and behavioural problems in children: the GINIplus and LISAplus birth cohort studies. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22487276/

Disaster-related exposures and health effects among US Coast Guard responders to Hurricanes Katrina and Rita: a cross-sectional study. - PubMed - NCBIhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25099408/

The Relationship of Built Environment to Health-Related Behaviors and Health Outcomes in Elderly Community Residents in a Middle Income Country. - PubMed - NCBIhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26425497/

The built environment and mental health. - PubMed - NCBIhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14709704/

Housing dampness and health amongst British Bengalis in East London. - PubMed - NCBIhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2305276/

Dampness and mold in the home and depression: an examination of mold-related illness and perceived control of one's home as possible depression pathw... - PubMed - NCBIhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17761567/

The validity of the environmental neurotoxic effects of
toxigenic molds and mycotoxins (2007). https://print.ispub.com/api/0/ispub-article/11373
Seasonality of births in schizophrenia and bipolar disorder: a review of the literature. (1997

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The Mould Show - Does Bleach Kill Mould?
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11/14/19 • 33 min

This week we’re talking about disinfectants and more specifically bleach or sodium hypochlorite. “Does it work, no it doesn’t, look it just feeds the mould, no it doesn’t, yes it does, it makes the mycotoxins worse and simply changes mould from one colour to no colour” Fact or fiction? We all know, there's a lot of websites that say conflicting things. Who do you believe? You might even know the answer, maybe you’ve already made up your mind? But wait - what does the science say? To bring some perspective to the bleach debate, I’m going to take a look at what the National Wrestling Coach Association has to say. Up to 20% of wrestling injuries are caused by skin infections. Tune in to this episode and find out what the martial artists discovered about bacterial transmission and how this leads to improved disinfection methods and best practice for surface decontamination? HINT: contact sports are associated with an increased risk of skin infections, but the conclusions from their research are valuable (and transferrable) to the indoor living environment and similarly, to water-damaged interiors. Join me tomorrow as I go through this very practical topic since all of us from time to time need to clean up the mould. After all, over 70% of homes test positive for mould and research shows that windowsills are often the most frequently contaminated sites. What are we to do? Reach for the latest kill mould solution from the supermarket or hardware store, reach for the latest ultra-green plant-based carbon credit contributing liquid or test out something simple like vinegar? Which disinfectants are best for porous and non-porous materials? What about essential oils? TEASER ALERT: Clove oil (a hidden secret)...see the graph showing its antibacterial effect. All these are viable options you might consider when you need to clean the mould away. But, before you begin, I want to shine a spotlight on what the research says so you can make better-informed decisions for your next cleaning task. Stay till the end and I’ll also show you a simple bathroom hack for cleaning grout joints that have gone mouldy?

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The Mould Show - What Is Christmas Tree Syndrome?
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12/19/19 • 25 min

Can a live Christmas Tree indoors aggravate your asthma or cause wheeze or contact dermatitis? Is this just a Scrooge conspiracy by a cold-hearted person who despises Christmas and wants us all to buy artificial trees or have no tree at all? Have you or a loved one perhaps started sneezing uncontrollably? Is that due to mould or just the fact that distant Family member/s you don’t see that often are on your doorstep? In this Live Stream, I’m reviewing the facts about what’s been termed Christmas Tree Syndrome and pointing out what’s real news from fake news. Also, find out why there might be fewer Christmas trees in your town or city this year?
REFERENCES:

Christmas tree dermatitis caused by colophonium allergy. 2017. Contact Dermatitis. 77:406-429. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29164686

Identification of mould on seasonal indoor coniferous trees. 2011. Annals of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology. 106: 543-544. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.anai.2011.03.003

Christmas tree allergy: mould and pollen studies. 1970. C.M.A. Journal. 103: 1272-1276. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1930673/

The Christmas Tree Allergy Phenomenon – Live Christmas Trees Carry Mold That Increase Allergy Symptoms in Susceptible Individuals. 2015. https://nhsjs.com/2015/the-christmas-tree-allergy-phenomenon-live-christmas-trees-carry-mold-that-increase-allergy-symptoms-in-susceptible-individuals/#identifier_0_2869

A Review of Colophonium. https://www.the-dermatologist.com/content/review-colophonium

Exposure and Health Effects of Fungi on Humans. J Allergy Clin Immunol Pract. 2016 ; 4(3): 396–404. doi:10.1016/j.jaip.2016.01.008

Kasprzyk I, Rodinkova V, Šaulienė I, et al. Air pollution by allergenic spores of the genus Alternaria in the air of central and eastern Europe. Environ Sci Pollut Res Int. 2015;22(12):9260–9274. doi:10.1007/s11356-014-4070-6. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473279/

The dreaded promise of Christmas and the New Year. 2007. Psychoanal Q. 2007 Oct;76(4):1351-60. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18085014

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The Mould Show - Can toxic indoor mould cause immunosuppression?
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06/13/22 • 33 min

Imagine that at your workplace - you move to new offices and these offices are sited partially below ground level. Within three months of moving into the new offices, every person who works there has started to suffer from symptoms that consistent with exposure to a water damage buildings and are reacting to the microbes and moulds that are commonly found in these environments.
When the symptoms became unbearable, the office staff started looking for answers. This week on The Mould Show, I'm going to be reviewing the research results that carefully examined each of those office workers to work out two things:
Firstly, was the building contributing something toxic that the workers were being exposed to? And secondly, how could this be best measured by the medical doctors who were involved?
This publication looks at whether or not immunosuppression and adverse events can be measured. And if so, how does one go about doing this? This publication appeared on the 21st of January 2022 in the Journal of Fungi: Toxic Indoor Air Is a Potential Risk of Causing Immuno Suppression and Morbidity-A Pilot Study.
What the scientists did was examine both the patient (that is the occupants of the workplace), and they also looked at the building to see what type of toxins and microbes could be detected.
The purpose of the research was how to prove causality between the symptoms experienced by the workers and exposure to the toxic indoor air. But the scientists weren't satisfied with just using microbiological technique to measure for mould, because it's well recognized that even though these tests are very sensitive and accurate to measure mould spore levels in the air - they can often miss the breakdown fragments of microbes that grow on water damaged buildings.
And therefore, this very exciting research from Finland has implemented a new method to assess toxicity indoors, which looks at collecting condensed indoor air water vapour and test that. Now what does this mean?
Well, essentially, they have devised and patented a method of rapidly collecting water vapor out of the air but again, how did they do this?
The Finnish scientists used three toxicity test methods to see how the indoor air might be compromised. The first one was to use THP-1 macrophages. We cover the other two cell, lines in the podcast.
But what about all those people who are working in water damaged building interiors? We know if they're being exposed to particulate matter, like mould spores and cell fragments, from typical indoor air quality tests like spore traps, bio tape lifts or direct microbiology from the air or surfaces onto Petri plates. But many of the mycotoxins can also be measured in urine? Thanks to this breaking research, there are other, new biomarkers like mycophenolic acid – which is tested from the water vapour indoors.
In turn, what do you think the contribution is to adverse health from mycophenolic acid exposure? The Finnish data shows that mycophenolic acid reduces immune function and the other types of in vitro tests showed that macrophages activity is reduced and that mitochondrial activity is increased, but also that bore sperm motility is interfered with.
Vaali K, Tuomela M, Mannerström M, Heinonen T, Tuuminen T. Toxic Indoor Air Is a Potential Risk of Causing Immuno Suppression and Morbidity-A Pilot Study. J Fungi (Basel). 2022 Jan 21;8(2):104. doi: 10.3390/jof8020104. PMID: 35205859; PMCID: PMC8877819. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35205859/

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The Mould Show - Can Mould Grow On Or In Bricks & Concrete?
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12/13/19 • 13 min

Think that mould only grows on bread, or on rotting fruit or if it does get inside your home - doesn’t it just live inside your air conditioning ducts where condensation can form, or if there’s been a flood or unexpected water ingress then it might grow on damp wall linings like gyprock plasterboard or on soft furnishings like backpacks or curtains?
This week, I’m wanting to talk about mould growth in extreme habitats like stone and mineral building elements. Think it can’t happen? I didn’t? I thought the only time microbes attacked walls was on really old ones where cultural artefacts like murals in churches or in caves become damaged. This phenomenon is called biodeterioration in the literature. However, I want to share with you some results from an inspection I did where we found mould growing not just on old plaster, but behind bricks, in old mortar joins, behind and between excised bricks and when we cracked some of the bricks open, there was even mould growing inside!!!! How can this be explained? After all, bricks and other stone materials like concrete and terrazzo-type floor tiles are typically a pretty poor foodstuff for microorganisms.
In a recent elegant experiment, some scientists from Israel and Germany did an elegant experiment showing that a fungus called Nigrospora spherica was the dominant fungus with a 100% match with the fungus found growing in efflorescence degrading stone chips of terrazzo floor tiles. When the particle size of the terrazzo was <1mm, the fungus dissolved more than 70% of the powdered tile in 10 days.
Now imagine what happens to your brick work when it gets wet and you see efflorescence. That’s a sign of fungal attack. If you have rising damp, you have slow biodeterioration going on indoors. Health concerns were raised by the authors of this study about breathing in the crystalline salts by residents where terrazzo tiles are breaking up.
This type of dilapidation happens eventually in the built environment. Now I want to show you some examples of fungi growing in a water damaged building inside a wall behind thick plaster....look at the clearly visible mycelium.... What about concrete? Typical fungi to those seen in the contaminated bricks include Aspergillus fumigatus and Penicillium brevicompactum. When concrete specimens were inoculated with these typical fungi and tested for stability and examined under a scanning electron microscope...do you know what they saw and found? The fungi induced: Calcium release from the concrete. If the concrete was wet, then they saw more rapid calcium loss compared to drier concrete.
After 28-days of growth with Penicillium, the stability of the concrete showed a 1% loss.
Now, lets revisit the mould in brick examples... What do you think is going to happen to your house if there’s a fire and the whole house is saturated? How is your remediation process going to get the mould and spores and biofilms out of the bricks, inside the bricks and between the mortar joins?
Citation: Jones CL. Guidelines for the assessment of viable fungal hygiene on indoor surfaces using RODAC petri plates. J Bacteriol Mycol Open Access.
2019;7(5):116‒126. DOI: 10.15406/jbmoa.2019.07.00256
REFERENCES:

Metabolic Activity of Micromycetes Affecting Urban Concrete Constructions. The Scientific World Journal. Volume 2018, Article ID 8360287, https://doi.org/10.1155/2018/8360287 OR https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2018/8360287/abs/

Laboratory study of fungal bioreceptivity of different fractions of composite flooring tiles showing efflorescence. Appl Microbiol Biotechnol. DOI 10.1007/s00253-014-5628-4 OR https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24652060

Concrete Damage in Field Conditions and Protective Sealer and Coating Systems. Coatings 7(7): June. DOI: 10.3390/coatings7070090 OR https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6412/7/7/90

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How many episodes does The Mould Show have?

The Mould Show currently has 88 episodes available.

What topics does The Mould Show cover?

The podcast is about Life Sciences, Health & Fitness, Real Estate, Mycology, Microbiology, Medicine, Climate Change, Podcasts and Science.

What is the most popular episode on The Mould Show?

The episode title 'Multiple Sclerosis and fungi – is there a link?' is the most popular.

What is the average episode length on The Mould Show?

The average episode length on The Mould Show is 23 minutes.

How often are episodes of The Mould Show released?

Episodes of The Mould Show are typically released every 7 days.

When was the first episode of The Mould Show?

The first episode of The Mould Show was released on Nov 14, 2019.

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