Something Shiny: ADHD!

David asks: what about brushing your teeth and things that don’t have immediate gratification, necessarily, but you have to do them over and over again? How do you motivate yourself to do them? It’s preventative-you don’t see what you save, you don’t know what Past You did for Future You when you’ve brushed your teeth. David’s answer is to outsource a lot of decisions that he doesn’t want to make to ritual, and the world of pain is part of everything we have to do. He just does it because it’s the routine (like getting up) even though it is so hard, so very hard, to do the things we don’t want to do. The fact that we can feel this much pain helps us want to prevent other’s pain, makes us think creatively. David might be willing to bet that a lot of technology and innovation that makes things more efficient and helps us skip the boring tedious parts is perhaps invented by folx with ADHD. For folx with ADHD, you are tested in fire all the time, and it does things—there is negative stuff (sucks experiencing rejection, sucks making mistakes, sucks not being perfect, sucks being found out)—but our ability to think outside the box because we’ve had to struggle our whole life is something he doesn’t want to surrender. Isabelle names that it feels that David saying that expressed compassion to the part of her that didn’t get that before. She thinks about how in trauma work there’s this mythology around the trauma making you stronger, but also—you could’ve been great without the trauma, thank you. Isabelle didn’t really give herself credit for the strengths, and often assigns the strengths and things that she has achieved to good fortune or luck, while taking full ownership of the blame, shame, and mistake-making parts. It has taken her a long time to not just jump straight to “I got so lucky!” And recognize that maybe she had something to do it with—and wonders if she’s the only one? David names that this is so relatable—it is so hard to acknowledge that our strengths are coming from the same place our vulnerabilities are. It’s so easy to say we got lucky or it was chance, because we don’t get to refine the skills to know we did more than get away with something. We don’t fit in the Normal Rockwell image of how things appear and so we don’t think about doing things the same way others do, either. David names how a part of him would be ashamed about getting ready for a school presentation in ten minutes—instead of practicing every night for twenty minutes, like he thought he should. Never mind that he still got an A, was able to speak with great energy, that the fact his tone of voice was a little more engaging—all of those things are ADHD. David is just thinking he got away with it, because he’s not counting all the times he thought about doing the thing and then didn’t, because they were ‘dumb anxious thoughts,’ never mind that he got it done and got a good grade, he was still a fraud because he was different. Now he can look at it in a balanced way, it’s all ingredients to who we are. In the real world, you’re not in trouble if you get it done too fast. Isabelle convinced herself people would think she cheated if she was honest about how she did something. We encounter so much pain, we don’t need any help seeing the fault of our actions, David is really good at that—but we all need someone to remind us of what we’re really good at. Folx with ADHD are used to calling out ADHD behavior when something is not going right; getting use to calling out ADHD behavior when things that are happening that are excellent, and would not be happening if not for a person’s ADHD. There’s so much pain, let’s honor the great things. Isabelle thinks about how she was at the park with her kid on a playdate and had a snack bag and thermos with tea. She proceeded to leave this tea everywhere and put the tea everywhere, on slides, wherever, forgetting she had it, circling back, and meanwhile, her kid is playing and pushing their amazing boundaries. She always thinks someone has come in and moved something, like the realization in the film A Beautiful Mind that someone’s hallucinations are so real to them they feel like reality. David calls Isabelle on calling this a delusion: somebody did move it. It was you. And you don’t remember it because you didn’t make a memory because you were busy doing ten other things. The whole thing is accurate. Isabelle laughs so hard and thinks she might need to get that tattooed on her: “Somebody did move it, and it was you,” Memento-style (see below). Isabelle notices that over time she is much more open and discloses more quickly that she has ADHD, in an attempt to normalize it and make it a safe conversation for the other person, too. And she notices that in the past she would maybe make it more of an apology or an explanation—d...

While we reunite (in person!) and prep some amazing new episodes, here's one of our top ever: ever wonder if it’d be easier to be partnered with someone who also has ADHD (or, someone who is neurotypical)? How can you coexist no matter what the combo platter of neurodivergence? Robin, David’s neurotypical partner, and Bobby, Isabelle’s neurodivergent partner, join a relationship round table filled with practical tips on how neurotypical and neurodivergent partners can better support, communicate, and respond in key moments with one another.

For our younger ears: there is a swear in the last minute of the episode. Be warned.
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ADHD is often scapegoated within relationships. David & Isabelle are joined by David’s partner, Robin, who is neurotypical, and Isabelle’s husband, Bobby, who also has ADHD. David describes his friendship with Noah, who also has ADHD, and how the two of them have different and complementary needs and accommodation styles (for example, Noah likes structure and being on time, David is more accommodated by not wanting to let Noah down). How relationships could look when people are aware of what they are good at, not so good at, and that they need to work differently. This is similar to how when Bobby and Isabelle were first diagnosed, they had very different ways of experiencing ADHD and their sample size (“but wait, Isabelle’s more organized, she can’t have ADHD!”) impacted their understanding of it. David and Robin describe how Robin gives David a part of a shelf—a place where he could freely be messy and do his thing. Like spots that she, as his neurotypical partner, does not try to manage. The group goes on a tangent about cockroaches running up legs and spiders in your mouth while you sleep (see below). David also observes that Robin does not ask him to do a lot of things so when she does ask him, it feels novel and he received instant gratification for doing the task, so he’s more likely to do it (and eager to please the person he loves). This also connects to how Robin asks him to sweep or clean up crumbs (more thoroughly). Isabelle notes Robin’s warmth—and recognizes that Isabelle and Bobby both aren’t as warm to each other around this feedback. Robin points out that Isabelle (having ADHD) may not see the feedback as it goes, and instead notices the feedback when she’s already overwhelmed. Isabelle and Bobby note what they call a Great America moment (see below) and notes how she was able to observe Bobby circling around distracted, like a shark, and that she was able to see he needed a different environment to complete his tasks and was able to choose to go to Great America anyway (for herself): in short, she didn’t have to jump into the shark circling herself. David points out that children (which he does not have) are like the loveliest hedonist parrots (which Isabelle and Bobby add: are also the best thing ever). David also talks about mirror neurons and how people with ADHD can have much more active empathic responses, where they can really sync up to the moods/emotions of the people around them. As Bobby is circling like a shark, Isabelle’s mirror neurons are activated and she is syncing up, but Isabelle does not need the same level of intensity. How to know when you don’t need that level of intensity, knowing when you can’t think your way out of that circle (AKA Great American moment). Also important and hard to notice when you’ve self-stimulated yourself into some intense emotion but then your next task doesn’t need it. Hard to see yourself clearly in these escalated moments and how a partner can see you more clearly sometimes and help reflect back boundaries or what you need. And so when Isabelle syncs up to Bobby, she’s trying to soothe them both, instead of paying attention to taking a break and NOT syncing up, which will help them both. Bobby notes that podcast recording sessions helps everyone. Robin also names times when she and David need to ask for what they need to sync up (or not sync up). David will call and give her a heads up telling her he’s ‘coming in hot’ from his commute/work time, when she’s on the couch horizontal watching the Office or Park and Rec—how they try to meet them halfway. How both David and Isabelle forget their age all the time.

For more show notes, go to somethingshinypodcast.com

Why is the cockroach named Rick? For no reason, except David and Robin like alliteration.

Isabelle mentions a sacred pact between humans and bugs? Well, it’s an ancient truce predicated on the idea that if a bug is around, that’s fine, we’re on their turf, really, but if a bug is on your body without you electing to have said bug on your body, or the bug is on your bed or perhaps in the bath/shower with you, you will...

Isabelle & David welcome guests to a live Q & A (previously recorded) and start by addressing the question: What is it about folx with ADHD and overexplaining? Isabelle really relates to this as she overexplains the question. David describes the intersection between mastery and guilt. When you have a lot of mastery around the topic makes it hard to structure a response. You have so much to say, and as you start talking, you realize the holes in what you’re saying, so you go back and try to respond more and try to fill in more and more, and because you have a lot of mastery you have a lot of information. There is also a sense of guilt: when people are trying to be understood, or are feeling misunderstood, people can overexplain when they’re trying to explain themselves. This is literally what structure looks like: over explanation is a structural issue, thinking about the beginning, middle, and end of what you’re going to say. With ADHD we often had a good beginning, a solid middle, and then...it’s just supposed to end. Why are people still looking at me? But I’m still talking...(awkward silence). Isabelle names there’s a look on people’s faces when she’s talking too much and often makes a joke about talking to much to end it; David notices when people start checking their watches or phone, or starts looking around the room, he just assumes that people are done. YAY for the podcast format that helps them both talk longer than might usually be socially welcomed. Isabelle describes how many a part of overexplaining is wanted to clue someone in to what’s going on in her head when she unmasks, like it’s the closest thing to seeing her thought process and the tangents and longwinded way she sometimes gets to things. She also finds herself wanting to fill in silence with jokes and facts and anecdotes and is often the one to try to break the ice. David names that this could be something else: namely, how comfortable are we with nothing? David has a low tolerance for someone asking a question, let’s say in class, that no one’s answering. It could also be called mansplaining, in the form of David just taking up air time, but he’s noticed it often helps start off conversation. Isabelle agrees that her awkwardness often brings people together. Noah chimes in to name it as being natural pickle jar looseners. Noah names gaslighting, and if someone has been gaslit (by others or themselves) their whole life, they may walk around feeling like they need to prove that they’re not “crazy” —Noah describes that he often asks himself “is this weird? Should I say this? Are people going to think...” before he says something. Everyone on the call starts nodding vehemently. David names that folx with ADHD often are very connected to someone else’s inner state, they have lots of mirror neurons (neurons that fire when you’re witnessing or anticipating someone else doing a thing AS IF you are doing the thing yourself, which some folx think can be linked to empathy—see fuller definition and resources below). Isabelle and David open it up to even more questions. Noah starts with the challenge of working with clients who keep developing structure to get something done and it works for a week, but then they have to keep recreating or honing the structure week after week and it’s not working. David responds that there’s often an overcorrection when people are putting in structure, for example, they plan out every minute but it’s not sustainable. Also there’s novelty: novel plans can be attended to and are often stimulating, but once something is not novel, it can’t be attended to the same way. Even if you don’t really like the thing you’re doing, it may still give you a dopamine hit. Noah gives an example of the Pomodoro method, which uses timers. David names that not all interventions work well for different tasks and people. Think of the brain of someone with ADHD as a jet engine—it’s not disabled, but it might find it hard to go in the slow lane or try swimming. So now introduce an intervention that means you take a break quickly after starting (and started a jet engine can take a while)—is the person having trouble taking breaks or having trouble starting? Start a seven minute timer and have to start before it goes off. If it’s a taking a break intervention, maybe take a break when you next go to the bathroom. Breaks and ADHD is hard, people will believe they need to take more breaks, and that’s not true—people often need less breaks, to stay in rhythm longer, and take breaks when it’s effective. For example, instead of a break after school, knowing your medicine is not going to work as well later, going to punch a wall (or do some movement) and then resume homework. It’s like the intervention of needing extra time on a test, when we often need less time....

David mentions that he is sitting on the floor, because he still hasn’t gotten a desk. Isabelle supports the floor sitting and prefers it herself for her sessions, or standing. The two agree on swivel chairs and some of the squeaky and smooth qualities of swinging or rocking, and Isabelle mentions that 5 S’s, or the hacks that are supposed to help lull an infant to sleep (5 S’s) —what is it about water that Isabelle finds so soothing on a sensory level? Isabelle’s theory is that it provides a deep consistent pressure, and a lot of sensation and stimulation, the almost-weightless feeling— a set of physical sensations. David validates this: cold water is a neurological stimulant, and the sense of buoyancy may not be comforting for everyone, but soothing for you. David mentions Wim Hof and his method that uses very cold water/showers and breathing methods to give a bit of a reset. David points out that water may also be helpful because it provides bilateral stimulation and an element of risk taking (you have to keep swimming or moving or you’ll drown), and Isabelle confirms that for her that pressure and buoyancy and the sensation of being pulled down (like Twilight Zone Tower of Terror). Bilateral stimulation is when you stimulate first one side of the brain, then the other. It has been known to help with trauma processing (for example, what’s used in a method called EMDR, or Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing), and added stimulation can be comforting alongside cognitive processing. Owning the idea that it might be comforting for you, not for everyone. There is a spectrum, for example, some people love a weighted blanket, some people cannot tolerate it. Make sure it’s a weighted blanket that is right for your age and weight range (because there are limits)—David almost threw his arm out throwing a weighted blanket. David tried it for three nights and then got too hot. Isabelle and Bobby’s blanket doubles up when one of them tosses their large blanket onto the other during the night. Isabelle talks about all the sensory rooms she wishes existed, and how awesome certain sensory toys are, and they agree about ball pits and how it feels. She mentions the City Museum of St. Louis (see below) which is filled with incredible sensory experiences—Isabelle had an experience where (as a six foot tall person) in a ball pit, she thought there might not be a bottom. David helped prompt Isabelle to remember what she was talking about by repeating back what her tangents were. Isabelle names that she has not idea where she learned something but can also picture it—David names that there are anchor memories. Isabelle notes that conversations with neurotypical friends—she slows down, tries to stay on topic, tries not to interrupt, which she notices she does not do with her neurodivergent friends. David never understood what masking was until he met David Flink and became involved with Project Eye to Eye. David learned through the trainings and collaborations with that organization that masking (pretending to be neurotypical) was chipping away at his authenticity. His usual rate of talking is 1.5x—and it takes energy to slow down, both Isabelle and David agree it’s exhausting to slow down. David describes how when everyone was talking, this awesome guy named Grady was throwing a ball against the wall, and then he shared this racquetball experience with each other. No one in that room dared to challenge someone to say they weren’t paying attention, regardless of what they were doing—it was such an empowering and incredible space. Isabelle remarks on how amazing this sounds and names that throughout this whole conversation, she has been fidgeting with a My Little Pony plastic tail—and how it would feel to hold up that fidget toy with pride. The importance of explaining to people why we need our sensory toys and fidgets and just how much it matters to unmask and set new models for people.

5 S’s (for soothing babies, developed by Dr. Harvey Karp who wrote the book The Happiest Baby on the Block) but as David and Isabelle name, these can be great sensory ideas for folx in any age or stage)

-swaddle (think of a weighted vest/tight shirt/weighted blanket/body sack/body sock)

-holding baby on their side or stomach (lying down in that position)

-shush (imitating white noise) (noise machine or ambient music)

-swing (or rock)

-suck (pacifier or thumb)

Twilight Zone Tower of Terror

City ...

Are folx with ADHD made to be night owls? Or early birds? Or does your early bird/night owl setting, which feels so engrained in your personality, actually have more to do with giving yourself distraction-less time? David and Isabelle explore myths, misperceptions, and truth bombs about the nature of sleep and ADHD, including tips on setting up your morning or evening (or all day) routines, dropping the shame, and embracing what you may be doing right in staying up late (or waking up early).
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Isabelle is super tired and is tired of her own choosing. She has been waking up earlier than usual in an attempt for her and Bobby to each get some alone time in the morning to get situated and start their routines and transitions differently. She does yoga, exercises, meditates, and can see that it gives her more energy. She wonders if folx with ADHD are actually night owls by nature, having spent years waking really early, then sleeping in—but is it ADHD? Delayed sleep phase is one idea, but David mentions that folx with ADHD seek out a distraction-free environment, and where you get that time (whether in the morning or in the night time) is the kind of person you become (early bird or night owl). So you adapt to achieve the distraction less time in the morning or at night. We carry so much of a load for all the things we’re not doing (I still need to call this person, I still need to do all these chores, etc). the escape of things being too late or too early to do also gives us distraction-less time. Being up early or staying up late gets really simple, it takes away choices. What happens when you are hyper vigilant all the time that you’ve made a mistake and someone is going to call you on making a mistake before you realize you’ve made a mistake? Or that you’ll later be embarrassed for doing something impulsively? This connects to how often is anxiety used by us to drive things, the anxiety of being an imposter, being seen as incompetent—there are lots of these themes for people. Certain environments shut off the anxiety or the drives. How much shame we have determines the intensity of the anxiety, hyperfocus, hyper vigilance. One of the reasons we are doing this podcast is to reduce that shame: there’s no shame in your night game! If you are still getting up and doing the things you need to do in the morning, go for it. If you like to wake up super early and run for hours—we can self-authorize to do the things we like and need. And shoutout to new parents, from David, that in between all of the unsolicited parenting advice, you need to believe in yourself and your needs, and not have shame for your needs. There can be so much anxiety for the ongoing assault of judgment about how you should be doing it; or how you should be spending your evenings. Or how you should be spending our mornings. Or how neurotypical you should look, how you should ‘do’ ADHD. There is no right way. If the task gets done, drop the how. Isabelle points out that early birds are often praised while night owls get the shame. David names that it’s more about finding mastery over your behavior. The answer is yes, there is no better, the real question is: are you getting up for the things you need to get up for? It’s the metacognition (see definition below), that gives you awareness that you have some mastery over your behavior (eg. Like waking up early easing your morning transitions. Isabelle is so tired she realizes her tangents are in slow motion and David names that he sees her turning on her blinker to make her tangent. Isabelle remembers reading a book about sleep that mentioned a method used by the military to fall asleep in two minutes (see article below), that includes relaxing your jaw. David names that sleep training often relies upon fatigue, and fatiguing your body. Weighted blankets can help (but with a word of caution, they are quite heavy, so if you try to throw it across your bed like a regular blanket, you will throw your shoulder out). It’s tough to plan what time to go to bed without factoring in what time you want to wake up, nor that you need to wake up earlier the day before so that you’re actually tired and fatigued when you try to go to bed early. Isabelle experiences this every time she tried to go to bed early before a trip. David is trying to actively do this now by waking up earlier the day before and drinking lots of chamomile tea. David names: we often do the right things but we don’t know why. When you’re staying up later, you’re getting the alone time that you need, but you’re not allowed to have it. Or if you’re listening to music all the time it’s helping you tune the distractions or scary noises out. Sleep hygiene is a place where we should all over ourselves (stop ‘shoulding’ on yourself). Sleep hygiene is creating routines: does it help? Does it...