S6, Ep. 14: The blockbuster SCOTUS case over religious charter schools

05/15/25 • 44 min

The most consequential church-state case of this Supreme Court term involves whether the government could – or even must – fund religious charter schools. Amanda and Holly examine key moments in the oral arguments from Oklahoma Statewide Charter School Board, et al. v. Drummond, playing clips from the courtroom and looking at how the justices may apply recent precedent to shape future law. As BJC noted in the brief we filed, if the government funds religious charter schools, it will drag our government deeper into questions it is unfit to answer on matters of doctrine and church composition. That’s not government neutrality toward religion – that’s religious preference repackaged as educational choice.

SHOW NOTESSegment 1 (starting at 01:53): Developments since our previous show

Amanda and Holly talked about the Catholic Charities/Wisconsin case in episode 12: Back to SCOTUS: Regular business in disturbing times

We released our episode with Melissa Rogers to coincide with the first 100 days of the Trump administration. It is episode 13 of season 6: Active citizenship: A conversation with Melissa Rogers about promoting religious freedom and the common good

President Donald Trump issued a proclamation on the National Day of Prayer and he signed an executive order on the same day establishing the Religious Liberty Commission.

The American Bar Association has a website page dedicated to National Law Day You can click this link to read President Donald Trump’s proclamation on “Loyalty Day and Law Day.”

The Respecting Religion podcast won a 2025 “Best in Class” award from the Religion Communicators Council’s DeRose-Hinkhouse Awards for our episode titled: “But ... is it Christian nationalism?” from season 5.

Segment 2 (starting at 09:51): Oral arguments in Oklahoma Statewide Charter School Board, et al. v. Drummond

Holly mentioned this article from The Washington Post by Justin Jouvenal and Laura Meckler that provides an overview of the case: How religious public schools went from a long shot to the Supreme Court

Holly and Amanda discussed these cases as they worked their way through the courts in episode 16 of season 5: The trouble with *religious* charter schools

BJC filed an amicus brief in Oklahoma v. Drummond, along with other Christian organizations as well as Jewish, Muslim and interfaith groups. Click here to read our brief.

We played four clips in this segment from the oral arguments in Oklahoma v. Drummond. You can visit the Supreme Court’s website for a transcript of the arguments and an audio recording of the arguments.

Clip #1: Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson & Solicitor General John Sauer
Clip #2: Chief Justice John Roberts
Clip #3: Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson
Clip #4: Justice Elena Kagan & Michael McGinley

Amanda and Holly mentioned three decisions authored by Chief Justice John Roberts that developed a new way of understanding the Free Exercise Clause. They are:

Trinity Lutheran v. Comer (2017)
Espinoza v. Montana Dept. of Revenue (2020)

SHOW NOTESSegment 1 (starting at 01:53): Developments since our previous show

Amanda and Holly talked about the Catholic Charities/Wisconsin case in episode 12: Back to SCOTUS: Regular business in disturbing times

President Donald Trump issued a proclamation on the National Day of Prayer and he signed an executive order on the same day establishing the Religious Liberty Commission.

The American Bar Association has a website page dedicated to National Law Day You can click this link to read President Donald Trump’s proclamation on “Loyalty Day and Law Day.”

Segment 2 (starting at 09:51): Oral arguments in Oklahoma Statewide Charter School Board, et al. v. Drummond

Holly and Amanda discussed these cases as they worked their way through the courts in episode 16 of season 5: The trouble with *religious* charter schools

BJC filed an amicus brief in Oklahoma v. Drummond, along with other Christian organizations as well as Jewish, Muslim and interfaith groups. Click here to read our brief.

Clip #1: Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson & Solicitor General John Sauer
Clip #2: Chief Justice John Roberts
Clip #3: Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson
Clip #4: Justice Elena Kagan & Michael McGinley

Amanda and Holly mentioned three decisions authored by Chief Justice John Roberts that developed a new way of understanding the Free Exercise Clause. They are:

Trinity Lutheran v. Comer (2017)
Espinoza v. Montana Dept. of Revenue (2020)

Previous Episode

S6, Ep. 13: Active citizenship: A conversation with Melissa Rogers about promoting religious freedom and the common good

Melissa Rogers joins the podcast for a conversation about how each of us can take steps to promote religious freedom and the common good in the United States today. After leading the White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships in the Obama and Biden administrations, she shares her inside perspective on government, where we are right now, and how people can truly make an impact. Our religious freedom protects everyone’s right to bring their faith to the public square, and you won’t want to miss this conversation about opportunities we have as Americans to engage government at all levels and express ourselves in the face of injustice.

SHOW NOTES

Segment 1 (starting at 00:38): The genius of our constitutional protections for religious freedom

Melissa Rogers served as the executive director of the White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships in the Obama and Biden administrations. You can click here to read her extensive biography. She is the author of Faith in American Public Life, published in 2019.

She has been on two earlier BJC podcasts:

Respecting Religion, S2, Ep. 06: What’s next? The Biden administration and religious liberty (2020)
The Dangers of Christian Nationalism series, episode 9: Religious freedom, church-state law and Christian nationalism (2019), alongside Rabbi David Saperstein. You also can watch a video of that podcast.

NOTE: On April 21, we released a special podcast episode recorded at the same time as this conversation, focusing on the case of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia and the rule of law. Click here to hear that portion of the conversation.

Segment 2 (starting at 10:09): Our current moment as a country

Here are links with more information from this portion of the conversation:

Melissa discussed the work of the federal government to protect places of worship. Protecting Houses of Worship is a helpful resource on this topic from the CISA (the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency of the Department of Homeland Security).

She also mentioned the Biden-Harris administration’s work on countering hate. One example is the United We Stand Summit in 2022: Taking Action to Prevent and Address Hate-Fueled Violence and Foster Unity. Click here to read more about the summit, or click here to watch the full summit proceedings.

In addition, the Biden-Harris administration released the U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism in 2023, and the U.S. National Strategy to Counter Islamophobia and Anti-Arab Hate in 2024.

Learn more about BJC’s Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign at ChristiansAgainstChristianNationalism.org.

Segment 3 (starting 16:52): Practical ways to take action

Here are a few resources and organizations to connect with if you are interested in responding to governmental actions, including by sharing information about their impact on you or your community:

DOGE cuts:

Have you been impacted by DOGE cuts? Share your story with the Center for American Progress
Article published by The Century Foundation:

Next Episode

Special LIVE Episode: Vouchers in the budget bill, SCOTUS stops religious charter schools, and new decision on the Dept. of Education

In a conversation broadcast live on May 27, Amanda and Holly provide updates on a day of big news in the religious liberty world. They first look at the surprising 4-4 deadlock from the U.S. Supreme Court in the Oklahoma Statewide Charter School Board, et al. v. Drummond case, which preserves a religious liberty principle by stopping the creation of the nation’s first religious charter school. They also discuss the troubling school voucher proposal that was slipped into the budget reconciliation bill that the U.S. House of Representatives narrowly passed on May 22, offering tips on how you can help stop it as it goes to the Senate. Plus, they give an update on last week’s court order stopping President Trump’s dismantling of the Department of Education and share why that’s good news for public education and religious freedom.

Show notes:

You can watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/live/i8S3xcBTs14?feature=shared

Holly read the entire two sentence decision in the Drummond case, which is available on the Supreme Court’s website. You can also read Holly’s statement released the day of the Oklahoma v. Drummond decision on BJC’s website.

The discussion of the budget reconciliation bill starts at 8:23. BJC has a website page with the latest on the bill and the actions you can take to stop it in the Senate. Visit BJConline.org/budgetbill2025 for more, including tips on finding a town hall to attend so you can connect with your lawmaker in person.

Click here to directly contact your U.S. Senators about the voucher provision, using our simple form.

Want to send us a video or an audio recording about why this budget bill would harm your community? Click here!

On May 22 – the same day the House passed the budget bill and the Supreme Court released its Drummond decision – U.S. District Judge Myong Joun granted a preliminary injunction stopping the Trump administration from dismantling the Department of Education. The conversation about this begins at 15:04.

Want to make sure you don’t miss future live episodes of the podcast? Subscribe to our email list to be notified of future shows, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Bluesky, X, or LinkedIn.

Respecting Religion is made possible by BJC’s generous donors. Your gift to BJC is tax-deductible, and you can support these conversations with a gift to BJC.