85: Lessons from Laozi, the Tao Te Ching

12/15/22 • 95 min

In today’s episode, Nat Neil and Adil discuss the Tao Te Ching by Laozi. We each picked a few of our favorite chapters from the book to read and discuss, resulting in a wide-ranging discussion of work, happiness, ambition, finance, philosophy, and all our usual favorite subjects.

Some of the topics we covered were:

The importance of not over-extending yourself, being moderate and patient
What does it mean to prioritize “inaction”?
The balance between short and long-term productivity
Which parts of the Tao do we each struggle with the most
What it means to seek a “middle path.”
Plus lots of tangents around fitness, entrepreneurship, work, other books, and more.

Be sure to stick around for the end, where Nat and Neil discuss our new plans for the show and where it’s going in 2023.

Remember to subscribe if you haven’t, and leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify if you liked the episode!

Timestamps

(1:10) - How different drugs created different financial crashes & philosophies

(3:22) - Background on the Tao Te Ching

(11:15) - Variations in the translations of the Tao Te Ching

(17:00) - What is the “real” version of old texts?

(21:20) - The theme of finding the middle ground, and inaction. Chapter 64. “If you rush into action, you will fail. If you hold on too tight, you will loose your grip. Therefore the Master lets things take their course and thus never fails.”

(27:00) - The importance of doing nothing. Chapter 48. “He who conquers the world often does so by doing nothing. When one is compelled to do something, The world is already beyond his conquering.”

(33:50) - The difference between short-term and long-term productivity. Sometimes doing nothing in the short term is the best strategy for the long term.

(42:00) - Chapters 68, 24. The importance of being balanced, avoiding going to extremes. Avoiding the consequences of intense competition. “He who stands on tiptoe does not stand firm.”

(51:00) - What’s something you’re doing that’s incongruous with the advice in the Tao? Neils: Shiny object syndrome.

(54:00) - Nat’s: Impatience with professional success.

(1:05:00) - Adil’s: Shiny object syndrome.

(1:07:00) - The problem with the practical vs. the ideal, giving and receiving advice.

(1:15:00) - Unintuitive advice in fitness.

(1:21:00) - Aiming at a specific goal vs. aiming in abstract.

(1:24:00) - The power of having a good adversary for bringing out your best.

(1:28:00) - Wrapup: Upcoming books, plans for the podcast

Mentioned in the Show

Byrne Hobart (on Lunar Society) (1:10)
Analects of Confucius (two episodes from now) (4:51)
Tao in You Website (11:15)
ChatGPT (14:00)
Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle (25:00)
The Alchemy of Finance by George Soros (29:05)
Tyler Cowen (31:50)
Cal Newport on Sam Harris (33:40)
John McPhee (34:00)
Children of Time, Adrian Tzchaicovsky (Nat got the age wrong, he was 46) (56:00)
Godel Escher Bach, Douglas Hofstadter. Episode link (1:04:00)
Antifragile, Nassim Taleb. Episode link (1:12:00)
The Gibraltar skull (1:14:00)
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Episode link. (1:15:00)
Finite and Infinite Games. Episode link. (1:22:00)
The Inner Game of Tennis. Episode link. (1:23:00)
Robert Nozick (1:24:00)
John Rawls (1:24:00)

Some of the topics we covered were:

The importance of not over-extending yourself, being moderate and patient
What does it mean to prioritize “inaction”?
The balance between short and long-term productivity
Which parts of the Tao do we each struggle with the most
What it means to seek a “middle path.”
Plus lots of tangents around fitness, entrepreneurship, work, other books, and more.

Be sure to stick around for the end, where Nat and Neil discuss our new plans for the show and where it’s going in 2023.

Remember to subscribe if you haven’t, and leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify if you liked the episode!

Timestamps

(1:10) - How different drugs created different financial crashes & philosophies

(3:22) - Background on the Tao Te Ching

(11:15) - Variations in the translations of the Tao Te Ching

(17:00) - What is the “real” version of old texts?

(33:50) - The difference between short-term and long-term productivity. Sometimes doing nothing in the short term is the best strategy for the long term.

(42:00) - Chapters 68, 24. The importance of being balanced, avoiding going to extremes. Avoiding the consequences of intense competition. “He who stands on tiptoe does not stand firm.”

(51:00) - What’s something you’re doing that’s incongruous with the advice in the Tao? Neils: Shiny object syndrome.

(54:00) - Nat’s: Impatience with professional success.

(1:05:00) - Adil’s: Shiny object syndrome.

(1:07:00) - The problem with the practical vs. the ideal, giving and receiving advice.

(1:15:00) - Unintuitive advice in fitness.

(1:21:00) - Aiming at a specific goal vs. aiming in abstract.

(1:24:00) - The power of having a good adversary for bringing out your best.

(1:28:00) - Wrapup: Upcoming books, plans for the podcast

Mentioned in the Show

Byrne Hobart (on Lunar Society) (1:10)
Analects of Confucius (two episodes from now) (4:51)
Tao in You Website (11:15)
ChatGPT (14:00)
Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle (25:00)
The Alchemy of Finance by George Soros (29:05)
Tyler Cowen (31:50)
Cal Newport on Sam Harris (33:40)
John McPhee (34:00)
Children of Time, Adrian Tzchaicovsky (Nat got the age wrong, he was 46) (56:00)
Godel Escher Bach, Douglas Hofstadter. Episode link (1:04:00)
Antifragile, Nassim Taleb. Episode link (1:12:00)
The Gibraltar skull (1:14:00)
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Episode link. (1:15:00)
Finite and Infinite Games. Episode link. (1:22:00)
The Inner Game of Tennis. Episode link. (1:23:00)
Robert Nozick (1:24:00)
John Rawls (1:24:00)

Previous Episode

84: The Tangent Episode

Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! In this episode, Neil, Nat, and Adil give you a full 70 minutes doing what they do best: Going on tangents. Originally set to continue with the next book on their Great Books Project, the energy and caffeine took over as they dive into a variety of interesting discussions, stories, and ideas. This is an episode you don't want to miss!

We cover a wide range of topics including:

Our favorite virtual reality video games and table games
How new leadership at Twitter has impacted the app recently
The strengths and limits of GPT-3
Preventing burnout in longer-term or creative projects
Being under-employed (on purpose)

And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode.

Links from the Episode:

Mentioned in the show:

FTX (0:26)
SuperHot (2:07)
Satisfactory (4:54)
Terraforming Mars (9:18)
Catan (9:34)
Klask (10:27)
7 Wonders (11:38)
Monopoly Deal (12:11)
Epic Gardening (17:12)
FAMA (30:05)
Tweet Deleter (33:21)
Twitter employees quit in droves (37:33)
Github (50:39)
LEX AI (59:38)
GPT-3 (1:00:33)
All-In Podcast (1:09:15)

Books Mentioned:

People Mentioned:

Elon Musk (9:22)
Kevin Espiritu (17:18)
Paul Millerd (21:50)
Marc Andreessen (31:53)

Show Topics:

(1:44) “Should we talk about the book?” This question answers itself as Nat, Neil, and Adil dive into conversations about their favorite virtual reality video games and board games, as well.

(7:05) A lot of games out there actually help you develop business and life skills. Although video games encourage high amounts of screen time, there is a lot of skills you can learn from them. There are also physical board games representative of the real world but with some fictional elements to it, making it very appealing and educational.

(14:22) It was at this point that the co-hosts decided they're too full of tangents to do a book episode. Nat, Neil, and Adil go back to talking about board games and the fun of strategic games.

(18:00) Preventing burnout in longer-term projects. You can’t be on all the time. Creative work is also hard to do for extended periods of time because it can be limited by your energy and mental output. We may even have certain parts of the month or year where we’re extra productive and wonder why we can’t always be that way, but it’s important to remember that resting is just as important as being productive.

(21:48) The idea of being under-employed purposely. If you've worked for a larger company or consultancy, you often have the feeling that you always have to be "on". When you work for yourself, it’s easy to fall back into the thought pattern that you have to be working all the time.

(28:26) Social media and podcast presence while also having a job. There are now ways for employers to check the online behaviors of their employment candidates and screen them using AI-powered tools.

(34:01) Some educational or funny content we save or bookmark for later tend to get lost in our library of likes. Platforms should create a better system for organizing and saving likes and bookmarks so they can be useful ...

Next Episode

86: Comfort is Killing Us: The Comfort Crisis

Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! In this episode we discuss The Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter, and how our modern lifestyle and pursuit of ease might be making us miserable, stressed, and anxious.

We cover a wide range of topics including:

The connection between boredom and creativity
Misogis and how to discover what you're truly capable of
Why you don't necessarily want "less phone"
How rucking could be a massive exercise hack
The proper "dose" of outdoor, tech-free time

And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode.

Links from the Episode:

Mentioned in the Show:

GORUCK (0:40)
Raising Your Ceiling (8:28)
Peter Attia’s Podcast episode with Michael Easter (9:01)
Torrance Tests of Creative Thinking (11:22)
Eight Mattress (48:36)
Tim Ferriss Podcast episode with Josh Waitzkin (54:14)

Books Mentioned:

The Comfort Crisis
Emergency (12:52) (Book Episode)
Antifragile (13:47) (Book Episode)
The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying (1:11:49)
Moonwalking with Einstein (1:15:01) (Book Episode)
Analects of Confucius (1:33:32)

People Mentioned:

Michael Easter
Nassim Taleb (14:13)
Josh Waitzkin (54:08)
Sogyal Rinpoche (1:11:48)

Show Topics:

(0:00) Rucking as a way to make you fit overall and where on your body you should be carrying the weight when you walk.

(4:32) How your eyes and body adjust to virtual reality. In general, your eyes dilate differently when you’re using a screen vs. not using a screen.

(8:25) In today’s episode, we’re diving into The Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter. The book is centered around the author’s caribou hunt in Alaska to challenge the idea of what comfort means to him.

(12:51) Good writing is more about helping explain a concept you’re beginning to think about in a way that you haven’t been able to conceptualize on your own yet rather than teaching you something brand new.

(15:19) Boredom is another theme talked about in the book. We tend to favor a highly comfortable life full of entertainment, and we get uncomfortable when we’re bored. However, making your life more comfortable isn’t necessarily going to improve it in the long term.

(17:59) We live in a world where there is always something you can do so you never have to sit in boredom when you’re waiting. Because of this constant need to entertain ourselves, we’re losing time that we could be spending processing and crafting new ideas. The more that we can train ourselves to be comfortable in boredom, the more we regain our ability to not be so hyper-anxious and reactive all the time.

(20:56) The connection between boredom and creativity is similar to the idea of rest recovery for working out. You wouldn’t work out the same muscle every day without a rest day. We’re essentially contracting the attention muscle all day long when we’re on our phones all the time and not giving it the recovery time it desperately needs.

(23:00) So what’s the solution? Let yourself get bored. Rather than thinking “less phone” think “more boredom”. Making space for your thoughts and resetting the baseline.

(30:58) What’s a sustainable way to get your brain rested regularly and how much outdoors time is recommended each month?

(33:13) Misogis are challenges that allow you to reframe your perception of what you’re capable of achieving. Each year, it’s encouraged that you take on a challenge, one that’s really hard and one that is unique where you can’t compare yourself to others.

(39:42) From Spartan Races, to pushup challenges, to training in the heat of a Texas summer, Nat, Neil, and Adil reflect on some of the harder things that they’ve experienced. As a species, we’re very capable of doing hard things t...