Jubilee Freedom & Shalom - E37 "Reflections of the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill E3"

E37 "Reflections of the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill E3"

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10/26/21 • 83 min

Jubilee Freedom & Shalom

This episode is the 3rd of a series where Nate and Daniel are reflecting on the recent popular podcast called "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" by Christianity Today. The podcast follows the story of a pastor named Mark Driscoll and is a cautionary tale about church growth and how celebrity effects people and especially people in power. In order for this episode to be more meaningful, we recommend first listening to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" episode 3. Nate and Daniel reflect on questions like:
Do you think it’s good or bad for churches to require ministry staff to have formal Bible or theology degrees? You think that people should be ordained by an organ or be able to ordain themselves and start their own church?

"We pray to the sky fairy and say God Bless America, it's just some cosmic piñata we throw prayers at and hope good things come out of. I can be a d*** about this, but anyone who preaches other gospels than Christ crucified or a watered down gospel can go to hell. Most modern philosophers are gay men and we swim in their stream too long we end up wearing pink and singing love songs to God, which is not advantageous when you’re at WAR. There’s a reason why in every major nation of the world and theology more women than men come to church. Your biggest problem is getting your men to give a s***. If you don’t give them biblical masculinity, they will adopt a chauvinism. They’ll drink beer, nail women, pick fights, and they won’t want to come to your church where you’ve got some Will and Grace worship leader and you’ve got a bunch of love songs for the sky fairy... we have to stop trying to be cool and be faithful”. -Mark Driscoll
Several ministers in attendance started arguing with Mark because of his statements and eventually walked out of his conference breakout class. But Mark loved being provocative. Him and his staff would go out after moments like this and drink beers and laugh about other's poor theology and how offended they were when Mark spoke.

Does a pastor have to assert his dominance and beat the crap out of you verbally and physically to prove he’s a tougher, more violent man before you submit to his authority and his church? Is that how Jesus called his followers?

During this time Mark shifted to calling himself reformed. He acted condescendingly towards those who held different theology beliefs. He made an offhand comment at another conference that “this conversation doesn’t really matter, because God made some of you to be matchsticks anyways” It was the elect vs the damned in Marks's mind. That created a riff between mark and non-reform pastors, but also reformed leaders in the emergent movement. Mark was the classic "young restless reform movement" type, but after he left Mars Hill, Mark rejected Calvinism and said it was for “little boys with father wounds”. Was Mark Driscoll just a chameleon or were those changes of mind and theology genuine?

Mark would say my adrenals are shot. I’m running on fumes. I’m spent. I’m physically sick and worn down. If this is the fruit of “doing church”, are we going about it wrong?

...And much, much more.
Credit to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" by Christianity Today for the content of this episode's discussion.

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Mark would say my adrenals are shot. I’m running on fumes. I’m spent. I’m physically sick and worn down. If this is the fruit of “doing church”, are we going about it wrong?

...And much, much more.
Credit to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" by Christianity Today for the content of this episode's discussion.

Support the show

Previous Episode

E36 "Reflections on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill E2"

This episode is beginning of a series where Nate and Daniel are reflecting on the recent popular podcast called "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" by Christianity Today. The podcast follows the story of a pastor named Mark Driscoll and is a cautionary tale about church growth and how celebrity effects people and especially people in power. In order for this episode to be more meaningful, we recommend first listening to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" episode 2. Nate and Daniel reflect on questions like:
-What is the history that fed into and led to Mars Hill and what other pastors influenced the culture at that time? Robert Schuler had a walk up/drive in church and later the Crystal Cathedral. He started the hour of power tv show and preached “The power of positive thinking”. He was a friend of celebrities and powerful people. Mark Driscoll spoke at Schuler's church and joked about yelling and screaming for an hour and a half when he preached. The Vineyard movement took a page from the McDonald’s playbook and ran with franchising the church model. All nondenominational and no systematic accountability. Willow Creek and Bill Hybels started in a movie theater preached the message of “we are better here and God is doing a special thing here that isn’t going on in other churches”.

-Mark Driscoll thought pastors were too feminine and too friendly. In the beginning he didn’t like seeker friendly or seeker sensitive churches and said he wanted to be seeker insensitive. He didn’t want to be a “have it your way” church. “We are hitting 1,000 members now and I’m wondering where my sin has come? It’s my goal not to grow. Church growth is the turning of God into a product to be marketed to a customer.” -Mark Driscoll

-Why do mega churches exist where they exist and when they exist? One commonality you find across theology and time is the SUBURBS. Moving into neighborhoods of people that make the same amount of money as you and it looks a lot like you and I have a lot in common with you. TV and radio and air-conditioning, all these technological advances allowed mega churches to become what they are today. Mega church pastors are good at playing to the predictable preferences of people in the demographic field of their suburban neighborhood and they leveraged those demographics please people. Rick Warren started before he planted his church studying demographics around California and narrowed down his plant site to four cities, then down to one city, and finally down to the fastest growing county in the city because he knew that’s where the most growth of the suburbs would be and that’s where the most people would need community and connection and he played off of that.

...And much, much more.
Credit to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" by Christianity Today for the content of this episode's discussion.

Support the show

Next Episode

E38 "Reflections of the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill E4"

This episode is the 4th of a series where Nate and Daniel are reflecting on the recent popular podcast called "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" by Christianity Today. The podcast follows the story of a pastor named Mark Driscoll and it is a cautionary tale about church growth and how celebrity effects people, especially people in power. In order for this episode to be more meaningful, we recommend first listening to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" episode 4. Nate and Daniel reflect on questions like:

William Wallace II was Mark's pseudonym that he used to say really crude things on the church's private chat board, Midrash. He posted saying the guys in his church were acting like male lesbians and needed to be put in dresses, beaten and humiliated. Men had weekly accountability meetings called "Redemption Groups" where men would say, “it’s time for me to go to meeting and take a bat to the head or get kicked in the nuts" because it was a weekly bludgeoning about they need to grow up and be a man and get jobs and take care of their families.

What does it say if your church's favorite movie is fight club? What does that reveal about the people in your church, what they are longing for and frustrated about, and what they think are the solutions?

Mark was a mixed bag of being able to teach scripture and being very crude and vile. Example: his "Hoe Hoe Hoe" sermons about the 3 whores who are in Jesus' genealogy. Was Mark an agent of chaos just to get a rise out of people? Is that the way we should go about confronting sin in the community or making peoples' faith real to them? Saying crazy stuff and making people confront what they’re hearing even if you don’t agree with what you’re saying just to force people to go through the act of understanding what they believe and how to communicate that back to what they’re hearing. Does this bear good fruit and does your answer change in light of the prophets and how people responded to them?

In the Men’s meeting in the gym Mark gave men the "Dad talk" for 2 hours yelling at them saying things like, "You can’t charge the gates of hell with your pants around your ankles, a tissue in one hand, and a bottle of lotion in the other" and that they needed to grow up, work hard at their jobs, and if they weren’t on board with the mission of the church they needed to get out.

Where in the Bible does it say men’s jobs are to defend, protect, and kill if need be for their families? I’ve heard this said as a moral imperative and I have never heard it supported by scripture. I’d like to hear the scripture story or commandment that people use to build that view of manhood.

What does it mean to “man up”? The Mars Hill answer was to protect wives, be strong, be warriors, be fighters, be providers, be responsible, be employed, be accountable, know your family role, and that was their definition of being servants. Why are these male only roles? And how did Jesus embody these qualities or not?

Mark joined a church because the preacher used bow hunting as an story for his sermon and Mark said, “I didn’t have any theological convictions, but if I guy can kill things he can be my pastor“. Why is a violent pastor worth submitting to? Should all pastors be willing to kill to serve effectively?

What is the significance of Mark's repeated origin story? And that everyone at Mars Hill could recount it? What is your church's often repeated origin story? Does your church even have one? What do you think the downsides are of not having an origin stories that's often repeated? Is the origin story that is repeated about your pastor, the leadership at your church, or is it about Jesus?

...And much, much more.

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