Everyone's Agnostic Podcast

Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Rogier Bos, Skyped in from the Netherlands. Raised by YWAM parents (and he himself YWAMer). He eventually got an M.A. in World-evangelization and worked in church planting for over 20 years. A Behavioral Science class in college started a slow-motion earthquake underneath his evangelical worldview. It all came crashing down in the summer of 2014 when he decided to do a three month experiment of not praying. He thought to himself, "If what I believe is true, than my life should take a serious turn for the worse". Only, it didn't. He realized he was doing better. He resigned his position as Europe Director of the church planting agency he was with, and is now in the process of trying to rebuild his life.

Those close to Rogier call him Ro, so that's what Bob and I call him. He's definitely one of the most devout Christians we've ever interviewed on this podcast. I totally related to his journey. It didn't bring me to tears in the live interview but as I listened back to it during the edit, it hit me pretty hard in some moments and aroused some very tender... bittersweet memories about those years that Jesus and I were deeply intimate. For some of us...Everything, and I mean everything...every moment of everyday was in communion with Father God through the Holy Spirit and my master-teacher, Jesus. Even as recent as this week I was taking a late night walk in my neighborhood and I kid you not, I reflexively began praying in tongues. And I'm almost 10 years out from believing. Ro's memory of those years is so fresh and his retelling of his story, his bearing of his heart, that he still wishes that God was real is extremely moving. So much so that it could be triggering OR it could be healing to hear another dear, dear soul like Ro's share his heart-breaking story of deconstruction and reconstruction after the dark, confusing backpedaling of one's faith. One of the best quotes from Ro is, he said, "In the end, we are best served by believing in what is true and real, and not holding on to a myth or a fantasy — however nice they are." Today he's professional photographer, he's 48, he and his wife have both left ministry and left their faith, they have three young adult children and we talked to him there in Holland on February 10th, 2018.

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Also, we offer these podcasts freely. And your support truly makes a difference. You can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge a monthly donation through Patreon. that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com.

Credits:"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack JohnsonThe segue music on this episode is Clair de Lune performed the Philadelphia Orchestra.

Thanks for listening, and be Yes-Sayer to what is.

Rogier's photography website

Karen Garst's new book: Women vs Religion

Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Derreck Bennett. Derreck is the author a book entitled, Addictus, which is a word for someone who is a debt slave; a person who has been bound as a slave to his creditor. Derrick agrees with step 1 of the 12 steps that he is powerless over alcohol but most AA groups take that powerlessness to a degree in which Derreck found counterintuitive. As an atheist fascinated by religion and philosophy, Derreck has studied extensively to glean a comprehensive understanding of the history and origins of religion. His story is both tragic and inspiring as he models how to overcome nihilism and create a life for himself after hopelessness. He was raised believing John 3:16 literally, that believers were immortal in every sense of the word--even their bodies would not die. Imagine the cog diss when his father and mother both died. It's no wonder he tried to anesthetize his pain through alcohol.

Raw nihilism is the belief that everything is meaningless. It's extreme form argues that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. That level of nihilism could produce a depressing hopelessness and despair. But a lite version of it could actually produce hope and happiness. Like the old bumper sticker, Life's a Bitch and then you die. I think these are truths that can set us free.

As argued in his book, The Denial of Death, Ernest Becker says that most humans work very hard to suppress the awareness of their own impending death. But I have found that when I do the opposite--I keep it at the fore of my awareness--then I actually value more the people and circumstances of my otherwise banal life. After all, if I'm alive to experience them, it means I didn't die today and that's a tremendous realization. If it's simply good to be alive, then even the worst day is at least a day--something I'm experiencing and any judgment I place on it feels like entitlement. I don't do this, but what if we started each day saying to ourselves, "I could die today," instead of hiding that fact from ourselves. The "life's a bitch" part is similar. I think it's worth saying out loud and to ourselves every day, "life is hard." Not in a self-pitiful way, but just as a check-in to make sure we've not slow and sneaky buried our heads in the sand. There's not one human on this planet that doesn't take a beating from this existence on a regular basis. It's going to get you and HAS been getting you your entire life. Nothing can stop it from hurting us and fucking with us. As a species we work hard to mitigate our pain and suffering, but no amount of our money, medicine, religions, science, self-help, exercise, entertainment, culture, travel, drugs, alcohol, sex, technology nor fancy foods can prevent it from kicking our asses on a regular basis. All races, religions, nationalities, ethnicities, genders, rich or poor all feel the pain of being human. Life is hard. No one comes through unscathed. I'm not saying "get over it." I'm not saying "buck it up." I'm not even saying, "stop whining." I'm just saying two universal truths: life is hard and it could end today. Yeah, the hardness of life and our unavoidable impending deaths are unambiguous and self-evident. Usually such things should go without saying. But given how hard we try to drown out the constant dull hum of those truths, we would do well to instead pump up the volume and let honesty breed its best offspring: a jovial carefree acceptance of this amazing consciousness we're all experiencing.

I posted a meme this week that said, "Actions prove who someone is. Words just prove who they want to be." I like devices like this, that cut through ambiguity; that shine like a flashlight on that which is otherwise murky. I like how this particular axiom looks to the evidence to know something. It's an example of living by sight, not by faith. But I wonder if people aren't a little too complicated for bumper sticker size slogans to fully capture the nuances of being human. For example, if my mother saw me flipping off my best friend or heard me cuss she might use that line of thinking--that actions identify a person--to judge me as having poor character. And she would be wrong. In this case, I would she fulfill 2 Corinthians 5:7 and actually use her faith in my character to overrule what only sight might determine.

When I posted that meme, on old friend of mine from back in Oklahoma commented. He's a Christian. In fact, I once looked to him as a spiritual director in my life. I've had many good mentors in my life. His name is Mike Shaw if any of you have ever seen him chime in with his Christian rhetoric. He's really a great guy--just totally and irreversibly brainwashed in the Jesus-stuff. But when he read the meme, "Actions prove who someone is. Words just prove who they want to be," he wrote, "Not necessarily! If their words are truth then actions will eventually follow. The heart must have a truth infusion ...

Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Valerie Torico. Dr. Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and writer with a passion for personal and social evolution. Today, we discuss Tarico’s book, Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light, offers personal insight into how we can apply “constructive curiosity” to our most closely guarded beliefs.

As a social commentator, Tarico tackles issues ranging from religious fundamentalism to gender roles, to reproductive rights and technologies. A primary focus is on improving access to top tier contraceptive technologies. To that end, in 2015, she co-founded Resilient Generation, a family planning advocacy hub based in Seattle, Washington. She serves on the board of Advocates for Youth, a D.C. based nonprofit with wide-ranging programs related to reproductive health and justice, and is a Senior Writing Fellow at Sightline Institute, a think tank focused on sustainable prosperity. Her articles have appeared at sites including the Huffington Post, Jezebel, Salon, AlterNet, and the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies, and they are available at ValerieTarico.com.

Bob and I (Cass) wish you a wonderful summer solstice, time with family and friends, the giving and receiving of gifts from loved ones, and however else you recognize these year end holidays. If you're going to be with family with whom there is religious tension, I encourage you to stick to humanist values when you're with them and be present as a healthy, mature version of yourself. To that end, I will now read excerpts from the third Humanist Manifesto and David Richo's declarations of healthy adulthood:

As humans, you and your family members are an integral part of nature, the result of evolutionary change, an unguided process. Our ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Our fulfillment in life emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Working to benefit society, even a micro-society like your family gatherings, maximizes your own individual happiness. We humanists have respect for differing views in an open social context, as long as they are humane.

And from Richo, in preparation for potentially incendiary encounters with family and friends, say these to yourself before you engage:

I accept full responsibility for the shape my life has taken.I need never fear my own truth, thoughts, or sexuality.I let people go away or stay and I am still okay.I accept that I may never feel I am receiving – or have received – all the attention I seek.I acknowledge that reality is not obligated to me; it remains unaffected by my wishes or rights.One by one, I drop every expectation of people and things.I reconcile myself to the limits on others’ giving to me and on my giving to them.Until I see another’s behavior with compassion, I have not understood it.I let go of blame, regret, vengeance, and the infantile desire to punish those who hurt or reject me.I am still safe when I cease following the rules my parents (or others) set for me.I cherish my own integrity and do not use it as a yardstick for anyone else’s behavior.I am free to have and entertain any thought. I do not have the right to do whatever I want. I respect the limits of freedom and still act freely.No one can or needs to bail me out. I am not entitled to be taken care of by anyone or anything.I give without demanding appreciation though I may always ask for it.I reject whining and complaining as useless distractions from direct action on or withdrawal from unacceptable situations.I let go of control without losing control.If people knew me as I really am, they would love me for being human like them.I drop poses and let my every word and deed reveal what I am really like.I live by personal standards and at the same time – in self-forgiveness – I make allowances for my occasional lapses.I grant myself a margin of error in my relationships. I release myself from the pain of having to be right or competent all the time.I accept that it is normal to feel that I do not always measure up.I am ultimately adequate to any challenge that comes to me.My self-acceptance is not complacency since in itself it represents an enormous change.I am happy to do what I love and love what is.Wholehearted engagement with my circumstances releases my irrepressible liveliness.I love unconditionally and set sane conditions on my self-giving. So get out there and be your self. Your "self" and presence are precious. Someday you and all your family members will be dead, never to be experienced ever again. You and they will not be sitting around the dinner table someday. But this Christmas, you and they will be there, together, in the same rooms, and that is valuable beyond measure. Bring your body, mind and soul into those rooms. As much as you're able and comfortable, be t...

Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo talk with Lisa Hope. She Skyped in from the Netherlands. She and her husband are US Diplomats. Lisa was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist Christian in rural Pennsylvania. She became a SDA Pastor and was a Chaplain on the University of Tennessee campus in Knoxville, and it’s just in the past year that Lisa has begun identifying as “solidly agnostic.” Lisa has lived outside of the US since 2012, she lost her first husband to brain cancer, and been struck by lightning. She's an adventurer, she rock climbs, hikes, rides horses, sails, scuba dives, and and paraglide. She is currently building her leadership and life coaching practice online www.lisa-hope.com. She enjoys helping people connect with themselves, with the people they love, and with their purpose, which sound like great tools for post-faith people. We lost our Skype connection with Lisa near the very end and couldn't get her back so the interview cuts off cold with no goodbyes. There's a link to her go-pro videos of her adventures and her website lisa-hope.com.

We taped this conversation on September 30th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack JohnsonThe segue music on this episode was created by the Barry Orchestra found at https://barryorchestra.bandcamp.com/

Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is.

Lisa's website: lisa-hope.com

https://youtu.be/d6dVXabGsyk (Lightning strike at 7:30).

Cass and Bob interview Chris SeathinHeathin, a local podcaster that we met at ReAsonCon the last weekend in April. We taped this conversation on May 2nd, 2015.

Chris was an “apatheist” most of his life and didn’t feel the need to express his atheism until he noticed the culture-sprawl of creeping Christian dominionism, to which he retorted by starting the podcast, Unbuckling the Bible Belt.

Chris doesn’t have a post-Christian story, but they discuss binge-drinking, social awkwardness, being a book-nerd history buff and topics from MLK to NSA to NRA to “what is a man?” It’s a bit of a detour from the regular format. It’s at least a window into another human story that is always uniquely fascinating.

The irony within this episode is Bob and Chris critique how ill-informed people often talk too much without having the proper knowledge to do so, and yet I (Cass) am the perfect example of that.

Also, a point I think this conversation raises is that Bob and Chris are life-long non-theists and I was a Christian til 40. I honestly didn't care about "worldly" things--news, world events, history, etc. I only cared about Godly things, things that involved the Kingdom of God. I'm very learned in Scripture and theological topics (which is normally what the podcast is about). This episode exposes my lack of knowledge of the world, and serves as a reminder why are podcast is not topical, but about individual's religious journeys.

Subscribe to our podcast on iTunes, TuneIn and most podcast platforms. If you’re feeling grateful for our podcast, Patreon.com is like a tip jar for our work.

https://unbucklingblog.wordpress.com/

Credits:

"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU

Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson

All other music is the theme music for Chris’ podcast: Unbuckling the Bible Belt written and performed by Eric Parsons, [email protected]