Hebrew Voices #194 – Pious Fraud

08/07/24 • 43 min

1 Listener

Dr. Nehemia Gordon - Bible Scholar at NehemiasWall.com

In this episode of Hebrew Voices #194 - Pious Fraud, Nehemia and Dan Vogel discuss a shared concept in early Mormonism and rabbinical Judaism about lying for the Lord, what biblical studies can learn from Mormon history, and the dangers of the “idealist” fallacy.

I look forward to reading your comments!

PODCAST VERSION:

Download Audio Transcript Hebrew Voices #194 – Pious Fraud

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Nehemia: And for me, the takeaway from early Mormon history, what my whole interest in this really has developed into is, we’ve got to be really careful making the types of arguments we’ve been making, because we have this case of early Mormonism where there are these evolutions of ideas within, like you said, the same month the book came out, he’s saying the opposite in what later becomes Doctrine and Covenants.

—

Nehemia: I’m back with Dan Vogel, the greatest living historian of early Mormon history, and I don’t think I’m exaggerating there, at least that’s my view on it. So, I want to respect people who are coming from a devout perspective, but I also want to hear what the truth is, and then I want to think about how this applies to other situations. For me, that’s the bottom line. How can I apply this?

And I want to I want to tell you one of the things, Dan, that I take away from this. We have all these ideas in biblical studies, Old Testament and New Testament, that are completely undermined by what happened in Mormonism. And I’ll just give you an example. I have no doubt whatsoever that Joseph Smith Jr. wrote the Book of Mormon, that he created it out of his own imagination, and that the Doctrine and Covenants were created out of his own imagination.

Yet they sound like they were raised by two different authors. One of them is... I mean, we started, and we didn’t get to it... before the discussion about what it means “eternal damnation”. Eternal damnation on its face in the Book of Mormon means, if you don’t have the right beliefs and do the right things, you’re going to hell for eternity. But then in Doctrine and Covenants, he explains, “No, it means you’re going to be punished by the Eternal One, by God, and eventually end up in some kind of heaven.” So, how could that be the same author? But it is.

Dan: And so soon.

Nehemia: Yeah... within a few years, he’s... within a year, even, he’s giving a different story...

Dan: The revelation you just quoted...

Nehemia: Yeah.

Dan: ...is given the very month the book comes off the press.

Nehemia: That’s amazing! So, now when I look at a document and I say, “Oh, this was ...” and this is a real example.

Dan: Yeah.

Nehemia: I say, “Well, how could this have been written by Maimonides in the 12th century, because Maimonides in his Systematic Theology says X, Y, Z, and you realize, well, okay, even though he was a systematic theologian, he’s also a human being, and in some context, he’s being systematic, and in other contexts he’s not.” And that’s really important for historical study of documents, not just the Bible, but for historical philology. We have this tendency... and I know you quote, and I want you to talk about this, there’s a concept you talk about here, a certain fallacy, I forget what it’s called, that people aren’t really consistent.

Dan: Right. The Idealist Fallacy.

Nehemia: The Idealist Fallacy. So, we employ...

Dan: The Idealist Fallacy is that you hold the ideal view of humans, and the ideal view of humans is that they’re always consistent. And so, you argue, “Well, Joe Smith couldn’t have said that because that contradicts what he said over here.” And you go, “Therefore, he didn’t mean that, he meant something else.” And then you tried to spin it and try to harmonize.

And my position is, well, that’s an apologetic position to demand that Joe Smith never contradict himself. “He’s always consistent.” And to use consistency as the rationale for your very difficult interpretation to accept... like with Masonry. How could he be anti-Masonic in the Book of Mormon and then join Masonry in Nauvoo? That’s contradiction...

I look forward to reading your comments!

PODCAST VERSION:

Download Audio Transcript Hebrew Voices #194 – Pious Fraud

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

—

Dan: And so soon.

Nehemia: Yeah... within a few years, he’s... within a year, even, he’s giving a different story...

Dan: The revelation you just quoted...

Nehemia: Yeah.

Dan: ...is given the very month the book comes off the press.

Nehemia: That’s amazing! So, now when I look at a document and I say, “Oh, this was ...” and this is a real example.

Dan: Yeah.

Dan: Right. The Idealist Fallacy.

Nehemia: The Idealist Fallacy. So, we employ...

Previous Episode

Hebrew Voices #192 – Early Mormonism on Trial

In this episode of Hebrew Voices #192 - Early Mormonism on Trial, Nehemia welcomes back Dan Vogel to discuss the uncovering of Joseph Smith’s court hearing documents, his background digging for treasure using seer stones, and the influence of folk magic on early Mormonism.

I look forward to reading your comments!

PODCAST VERSION:

Download Audio Transcript Hebrew Voices #192 – Early Mormonism on Trial

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Dan: Only the apologists that seem to have come from another century. They’re the old apologists. They’re the bad apologists, the apologists that really...

Nehemia: I don’t feel like I, as an outsider, should make a judgment about who are the good and bad apologists, but...

Dan: Oh, I will.

—

Nehemia: I’m back with Dan Vogel, the greatest living historian of early Mormon history, and I don’t think I’m exaggerating there. At least that’s my view on it.

Dan: Joseph Smith didn’t answer any of that. Never answered his relatives, never answered the neighbors, never disputed the magic or money digging or seer stone or anything. Never said a word. All he did is publish his own version.

Nehemia: Well, I think he made a statement about how, “Well, if I was a money digger, I wasn’t a very successful one, because I only made $14.” Didn’t he say something like that?

Dan: Yeah, and the only time he ever mentions money digging is to imply that he was nothing but a digger.

Nehemia: Mm-hmm. Tell us about the money digging. So, we alluded to it a few hours back.

Dan: He only dug... “I dug, and I talked to the guy out of doing it anymore, and we quit,” you know.

Nehemia: So, money digging... the audience who isn’t familiar with this will have no idea what that is. Tell us about money digging. Let’s go. And this has to do with the Mound Builder Myth, doesn’t it?

Dan: No, not so much. Yes and no. But there were treasures from the Indians that they don’t...

Nehemia: There were actual treasures from Indians...

Dan: That were hidden. They believed like there was a golden throne...

Nehemia: Did anybody ever find gold? Let’s find out...

Dan: No.

Nehemia: Okay.

Dan: Nobody ever found anything, really

Nehemia: Okay, so, there is this whole culture of, every time there’s a hill, they believe it’s manmade... and that’s why I connect it to the Mound Builder Myth. And then there’s gold in that hill, and so people are going back over 100 years... before Joseph Smith, we have, I think, Thomas Jefferson or somebody... Or maybe not 100 years, but decades before, he’s describing how people are out in the countryside and they’re digging holes, wasting their time, looking for treasures.

Dan: Yeah. Benjamin Franklin.

Nehemia: Benjamin Franklin, okay.

Dan: Yeah. Jefferson dug in the mountains, and...

Nehemia: I meant Benjamin Franklin, sorry.

Dan: He’s an archaeologist, kind of. But Benjamin Franklin, yeah, he talked about people consulting astrologers for the best time to dig for money. And they would look for various things, and seers... Joe Smith wasn’t the only one putting a stone in his head. They were more than you think, anyway. In his own neighborhood, there were several people that had stones. There was Sally Chase, who was the main seeress, a neighbor of his, that had a green stone, that would look in her stone. There was William Stafford down about a mile south of their farm. He had a seer stone also, and one of his sons had a seer stone. There was Samuel Lawrence. Samuel Lawrence was one of the major seers in the area that actually went up on the hill with Joseph Smith and said he saw the plates in his stone. So, there were seers around; Joe Smith wasn’t an oddity. But it was a competition, that... I argue that he was trying to win. This was his major goal in life at this time, was to be the best s...

Next Episode

Hebrew Voices #193 – Global Outpouring – “The Name of Our Father”

In this episode of Hebrew Voices #193 - Global Outpouring "The Name of Our Father", Nehemia is interviewed by Philip and Sharon Buss from Global Outpouring where he shares his fascinating perspective on the deep things of the Hebrew Scriptures and how he has put decades of study into finding and confirming the correct pronunciation of the Name “Yehovah.” He shares with the Busses just a few of his many discoveries, the fascinating history of how and why God’s name, Yehovah, became forbidden to say, and why it’s important for Christians and Jews to understand it’s meaning.

I look forward to reading your comments!

PODCAST VERSION:

Download Audio

Transcript Hebrew Voices #193 – Global Outpouring – “The Name of Our Father”

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Nehemia: The Romans said, “If we can get people to just use God, we know that God is Zeus and Jupiter, and they don’t know that yet, but they’ll eventually get it.” But if, instead of God you say Yehovah... well, no, Yehovah is not the same as Zeus and Jupiter. So, for me it’s important that if he says, “This is My name forever. This is My mention for generation to generation”, I should take that seriously.

—

Philip: God promises in Joel 2:28 to pour out His spirit on all humanity. Welcome to Global Outpouring, where we contend for that promised outpouring. We equip for that outpouring so that we may engage in that very outpouring. I’m Phillip Buss.

Sharon: And I’m Sharon Buss. Welcome to the podcast today. We have with us a very, very special guest that I’ve been longing for a long time to have with us. His name is Dr. Nehemia Gordon, and he is an author, and he is a scholar of the deep things of the manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible. And he’s going to share with us some things that we need to know about the name of our Father.

Thanks for joining us today. I know you’re going to enjoy this podcast. But before we get started, we want to encourage you; if you haven’t already done so, please go to our website, globaloutpouring.net and sign up for our email lists. You never know when something might happen, that we might say something on YouTube or on some other platform that we might get thrown off, and then you wouldn’t be able to find us. So, if you are on our mailing list, we’ll be able to stay in touch with you. And we’d love it for you to stay in touch with us, if you would give us some feedback. You can send an email to [email protected], or you can go to that globaloutpouring.net page, and there’s a feedback form there.

And also, if there’s anybody that is really being fed by this podcast, if you would like to help us pay it forward, help us to continue to make these podcasts, there’s a donation page on our website, and we would greatly appreciate your help.

So, today we have with us Dr. Nehemia Gordon, and I need to tell you some of the backstory for this episode. If you want to understand the Bible, you have to get back to the Hebrew first. The scriptures that the writers of the New Testament referred to are the Hebrew Bible, what we call the Old Testament. Paul, writing to Timothy, said, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” He said that in 2 Timothy 3:16. So, what he’s referring to is the Hebrew Bible. There was no canon of New Testament scripture in those days.

And then he wrote in Romans chapter 3, verses 1 and 2. Verse 1 says, “What advantage has the Jew?” Or “What is the superiority of the Jew?” Depending on what translation you read. And then in verse 2 it says, “Much in every way. For first, indeed they were entrusted with the oracles of God, the very words or the utterances of God.” And the contemporary English Version says, “First of all, God’s messages were spoken to the Jews.” So, that’s why we should go back to the Jews to find out the nitty gritty of the Hebrew language.

So, I’ve been following Nehemia Gordon on YouTube for years, and I’ve read two of his books. He’s an expert in the Hebrew language because he’s Jewish and he has studied it all of his life. He comes from a long line of rabbis, so he has a great teaching gift in his DNA. He’s not a ...