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Disorder

Disorder

Goalhanger & Global Enduring Disorder Ltd

Gone are the days of coherent international coordination. Rather than working together to solve pressing crises, many of the world’s most powerful states are actively making those crises worse. The result? We’re living through a novel historical era: The Global Enduring Disorder. The Disorder podcast teases out the key principles that connect seemingly disparate challenges: from Climate Change to Tax Havens, to Unregulated Cyberspace, to the Wars in Ukraine, Syria, and Libya. Jason Pack, NATO Foundation Senior Analyst, and Alexandra Hall Hall, a former British Ambassador, discuss with world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, the fundamental principles lurking behind today’s global issues. At the conclusion of each episode, they will be proposing inventive, win-win solutions to the globe’s most pressing challenges aka, ‘Ordering the Disorder’. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com
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Goodpods has curated a list of the 10 best Disorder episodes, ranked by the number of listens and likes each episode have garnered from our listeners. If you are listening to Disorder for the first time, there's no better place to start than with one of these standout episodes. If you are a fan of the show, vote for your favorite Disorder episode by adding your comments to the episode page.

In the early morning hours of 19 April, American officials told major news outlets that an Israeli missile had struck central Iran near its nuclear sites. No one was harmed. Officially, the Israelis are not claiming to have attacked; and Iran is not claiming to have been attacked. It is distinctly possible that this pinprick strike combined with denials on all sides will satisfy both parties and avert further retaliation. Conversely, it is also distinctly possible that it will lead to further cycles of revenge and escalation.

To Order this Disorder, Jason is joined by our returning champion Arthur Snell and our great Scottish hopeful, Jane Kinninmont -- Policy & Impact Director at the European Leadership Network (an institution specializing in preventing nuclear war). The trio discuss: 1) why did Israel choose to retaliate, even though Biden counselled them to ‘Bank the Win’; 2) if this event even counts as retribution for the Iranian strikes of 14 April or could be classified as a non-strike as it is below the threshold of certain previous Israeli actions inside Iran; and 3) how Iran’s and Israel’s Sunni Arab neighbors are responding.

Mulling over this unique historical moment, the trio use the Ordering the Disorder segment to propose opportunities for sage diplomacy to prevail and de-escalate tensions. Of course, the mere existence of these win-win, mutually beneficial, off-ramps from further conflict, does not mean that the Iranians or Israelis will seizes these opportunities.

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/

Producer: James Hodgson

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

For a quick overview of April 19th’s events: https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/04/israel-carries-out-strikes-isfahan-iran-reports?mc_cid=a8bfe16bdf&mc_eid=b844138f36

For Iranian narratives of the confrontation with Israel: https://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/out-of-the-shadow-war-iranian-narratives-of-the-confrontation-with-israel/

For Arthur Snell’s Substack, ‘Not All Doom’: https://arthursnell.substack.com/

And for his podcast ‘Behind the Lines’: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell/id1704344656

Join ELN’s roundup of the Persian language news: https://europeanleadershipnetwork.us5.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=f9c4fc8e446f80bb4d50ed06f&id=ca7882ea45

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We celebrate 9 full months of Disorder with a live studio recording. Climate change hasn’t been acted on coherently by a coalition of major powers, while certain governments and businesses have prevented climate action choosing to pursue short-term goals. Is this to be expected? Is it rational for some governments and business to pull in different directions or are they missing the plot and thinking too short-term?

But then again, is it in the long-term interest of most major states, citizens, and multinational corporations to work together to fight climate change? Or is it actually a rational calculation for certain states or corporations (like oil producing ones) to fight the creation of global coordination mechanisms and delay the energy transition and look to profit from the current high demand for the fossil fuels that they either export or produce?

To discuss this issue, Jason Pack is joined by Olivia Azadegan and Hassan Damluji.

Hassan Damluji is a British-Iraqi development expert and author of The Responsible Globalist: What Citizens of the World Can Learn from Nationalism. He is Co-founder of Global Nation, which focuses on improving international cooperation to combat climate change, pandemics, inequality and conflict. Olivia Azadegan is a British-Iranian, a fellow at the Women Leaders in Energy and Climate Change at the Atlantic Council and a winner of a Forbes 30 under 30 Award.

The trio discuss: what is the role of the MENA region in fighting climate change, how can nations effectively coordinate to incentivise each other to act now, and why low hanging fruit like reducing methane emissions could help us Order the Disorder.

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/

Producer: George McDonagh

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

Listen to our previous Climate Change focusing on COP episode at: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/57a09a9714313530fa16475c09396f7b

For more on COP and collective action:

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/12/13/in-a-first-cop28-targets-the-root-cause-of-climate-change

How MENA countries face achieving climate resilience: https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2024/04/assessing-climate-adaptation-plans-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa?lang=en

Exploring the Energy Transition and Net-Zero Strategies of Gulf Oil Producers: https://www.bakerinstitute.org/research/exploring-energy-transition-and-net-zero-strategies-gulf-oil-producers

A profile of our Queen for an episode: https://www.forbes.com/profile/olivia-azadegan/

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In this bonus episode, Alex and Jason catch up after a long absence and chew the fat. They discuss the tradeoffs of life in the US vs UK delving into the Convenience vs Inspiration dichotomy. They try to decide who moved to the more chaotic place and where life is more livable and unpack thorny philosophical problems like have Britain’s public services become enshittified just as American tech platforms have? Plus, they discuss the Disorder of getting car insurance in the UK, the Conservative’s London Mayoral election campaign, and what a Trump election could mean for America’s foreign policy.

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/

Producer: George McDonagh

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

For the origins of Enshittification visit here

Enshittification as word of the year here

Read more of Alex’s writing at Byline Times

And Jason’s at his website

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India is arguably the world’s only rising great power. As the world’s largest democracy and soon to be third largest economy it is the globe’s most serious aspirant for becoming the 6th permanent member of the UN Security Council. Despite this economic and foreign policy heft, since independence in 1947, India has stridently resisted being aligned with any one particular geopolitical “camp”. It has always wanted to retain its “strategic autonomy” and to avoid being treated as a junior partner to any major superpower. Recently, India has hedged between Ukraine and Russia, btw the BRICS and America, and btw Israel and the Arab World. As a result, India has successfully maintained cordial ties with many of the world’s top powers, but has it done so as an Orderer or as a Disorderer?

To discuss, Alex Hall Hall is joined by Indrani Bagchi – one of India’s most respected foreign policy journalists, a former Associate Editor for the Times of India, and currently Chief Executive Officer of the Ananta Centre. The duo discuss India’s approach to Russia, China, the UK, and the Israel-Gaza conflict. At the interview’s conclusion, while trying to Order the Disorder, an incensed Jason butts in with his strong personal hunch that India has much latent ordering potential but that Modi has deliberately squandered it in pursuit of his divisive and disordering neopopulist policies.

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/

Producer: George McDonagh

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

Find out more about India’s wealth income inequality from TIME here

Read about Kejriwal’s arrest here

For more on India’s election here

Learn about how Modi’s Neo-Populist consolidation here

More on the arrest of opposition politicians here

And about the killing of a Sikh activist in Canada here

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Part of the Enduring Disorder is our increasingly divided and partisan narratives. Trump vs. Biden, Leavers against Remainers, Palestinians and Israelis. Many of today’s political actors appear unable to understand and empathise with their opponent’s points of view. Why? Potential because social media, cancel culture, and increased partisanship seems to have actually decreased people’s ability to feel empathy or to desire it from their politicians.

But should all our politicians just be more empathetic? Actually electorally that might not work. Do Democrats actually want to see Biden empathise with Speaker Johnson blocking aid to Ukraine? Would Labour voters accept it if Kier Starmer had sympathy with Boris Johnson lying to parliament? And does the Israeli electorate want a politician who has empathy for why Hamas committed the atrocities of Oct 7?

So what does empathy really mean in geopolitics? And how can it actually be put into practice in today’s politics? Most crucially how could a genuinely empathetic politics be useful in trying to order the disorder?

To find out, Jason Pack is joined by Dr Claire Yorke. She is an author and academic whose work explores the role and limitations of empathy and emotions in international relations, diplomacy, strategy, and political leadership. She is currently a Senior Lecturer at the Australian War College in Canberra. Jason and Claire discuss: what exactly is empathy? Can or should you empathise with someone that you fundamentally disagree with? And could empathetic leadership help us Order the Disorder?

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/

Producer: George McDonagh

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

Read Claire’s essay, Is empathy a strategic imperative? https://doi.org/10.1080/01402390.2022.2152800

Read Claire Yorke: "Personal and Political Emotions in the Mind of the Diplomat.". https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01402390.2022.2152800

Claire’s website: https://claireyorke.me

Find out more about Empathy Week – to help grow empathy in the classroom and create a new generation who understands its value - https://www.empathy-week.com

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As the Houthis attack ships in the Red Sea, Arthur Snell and Jason explore: 1) How this horrible crisis is actually an opportunity to create a coalition of orderers; 2) how Iran is not really able to use the Houthis as a proxy; 3) how one interpretation of the Houthi actions is as ‘global disordering’ rather than specifically supporting the Palestinians or a given outcome in Gaza; and 4) how there is an opportunity for a uniquely constructive role for Britain, drawing on its credibility and experience in protecting global shipping especially in a context where China refuses to engage.

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/subscribe

Producer: George McDonagh

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

A good intro to Yemeni history from Time’s ‘Made by History’ can be found here.

What the US is doing here

What the UK is doing by Elisabeth Braw here

And what some think the US and UK should be doing here

Context around Anti-Semitism in Yemen here

Role of Saudi here

Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind the Lines here

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After months of the grandees in the Democratic party telling the public that Biden’s age was nothing to worry about: the Global Orderer-in Chief has been shown to have no clothes and his adult diapers were not changed prior to his appearing before an audience of tens of millions. As Mega-Orderers know, Jason is prone to melodrama, but in this instance the Sky Really Is Falling! June 27, 2024 may go down there as one of those dates like Dec 7, 1941 and June 23, 2016: Dates that will live on in infamy.

Biden’s debate performance truly has massive implications for global order: it will embolden Pyongyang, Beijing, Tehran, and Moscow; it creates a dangerous global vacuum with an absence of orderers for many months until the dust settles from the US election; and it leaves the democratic party with an urgent choice how to choreography the process of substituting Biden out for a younger candidate.

To counterbalance Jason’s doom and gloom, he is joined by the ever up beat Glaswegian Jane Kinninmont who presents the view on Biden from the European capitals.

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/

Producer: George McDonagh

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

As for what needs to happen now, here are what centrist Democrats commentators are saying: Tom Friedman: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/joe-biden-tom-friedman.html

Frank Bruni: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/presidential-debate-trump-biden-2024.html

Scores of cogent podcasts have emerged dissecting the optics of the debate and what the Dems have to do now. Here are a couple that we have found particularly useful:

Ezra Klein: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-presidential-debate.html

The Rest is Politics US: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/advantage-trump-will-the-democrats-move-to-replace/id1743030473?i=1000660512902

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Disorder - Ep91. An Orderly or Disorderly New Year?
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12/31/24 • 65 min

From the Trump election win to the ongoing conflicts across the Middle East, Sudan and Ukraine... 2024 was certainly a year full of Disorder. But what about 2025? Is there any realistic hope that it could be more orderly? Well maybe there is! And maybe the time has come to take more seriously the *potential* advantages of certain Trump policy proposals. (or maybe not? hahahah)

In this episode, we continue our spotlight on Hebrew music as it is still Hannukah and the tune we start out with asks the question ‘What will happen in the new year? We have to wait and see’. Jason is joined by fan favourite Jane Kinninmont to discuss the past year: reflecting on the myriad challenges faced by Orderers. They dissect the most Disordering events of 2024 as well as providing some hypotheticals like the various dogs that didn’t bark: the assassination attempt against Trump leading to an American civil war or a hot war between Israel and Iran emerging due to a miscalculation.

Plus: what is the background of Susan Wiles, who is she, what stock does she come from, and what is her likely role in the incoming Trump government (could she be a power behind the throne and a real orderer)? We also discuss the centrality of the immigration issue to the global neo-populist movement.

Meanwhile, Jason wonders: has the center-left got it all wrong? Have we been too biased on the pod in 2024 in cheerleading for Starmer and American centrists? This chain of thought culminates in some musings on Angela Merkel’s leadership, and her missteps, and the influence of conspiracy theories in popular culture. The show ends predictability by our discussing how each of us can help to order the disorder in 2025, emphasizing the importance of civic engagement and individual empowerment to help drive positive policies.

Producer: George McDonagh

Executive Producer: Neil Fearn

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Show Notes Links

For more about our Glaswegian Fan Favourite Jane Kinninmont: https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/person/jane-kinninmont/

And her recent fascinating article in The Times of India ‘Ayatollah after Assad’: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-edit-page/ayatollah-after-assad/

Alex has written this great overview article about the situation in Georgia from her recent trip: https://bylinetimes.com/2024/12/17/the-west-will-regret-abandoning-the-georgian-people-to-the-clutches-of-russia/

If you like the way the Disorder Pod sounds check out ‘Can a steel town survive if its furnaces are turned off? – podcast’ where the reporting and the audio production are done by our producer George McDonagh: https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2024/dec/19/can-a-steel-town-survive-if-its-furnaces-are-turned-off-podcast

For more of Yoav Oved’s music visit his Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/YoavSings/?locale=en_GB

Or instagram https://www.instagram.com/yoavsings/?__d=1

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In late January 2024, New Hampshire residents received a strange phone call. The voice of Joe Biden was telling them not to vote in the Democratic Primaries. But it wasn’t actually the President on the line... It was a deep faked robot. This was part of an unlawful attempt to disrupt the New Hampshire Presidential Primary Election. That disinformation campaign was created by easily accessible technology. Over the next months, more sophisticated attempts are almost bound to emerge seeking to disrupt the November US Presidential Elections... so what can be done to prevent AI-empowered voter suppression and help protect democracy against these very real threats?

To find out, Alex Hall Hall speaks to Miles Taylor. Miles was the Chief of Staff in the Department of Homeland Security under the Trump Administration. It was later revealed that he was the author of the famous ‘Anonymous’ essay in the New York Times entitled, ‘I am part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration’. He most recently wrote an NYT bestseller ‘Blowback’. Taylor is now the co-founder of the US Futures Policy Studio in Washington; an organisation which is looking to help policymakers better understand deep fake technology. In his discussion with Alex, he talks about his reasons for leaving the Trump Administration; the unbridled vengeance he faced as a consequence of speaking out against a Neo-Populist; and his current work bringing attention to one of the most profound threats currently facing democracies: Artificial Intelligence.

To close the show, Jason and Alex ‘Order the Disorder’ by discussing the need for fast-moving regulation around AI, why a lengthening of ‘power distance’ in American society is an indication that our democratic institutions and culture aren’t work properly anymore, and why a public information campaign ridiculing AI deep fakes could help to prepare society for these disruptive technologies.

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/

Producer: George McDonagh

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

Read the famous ‘Anonymous’ essay in the NYT here

Read why Miles unmasked himself here

Read Alex’s article ‘Should I Stay or Should I Go? The Dilemma of a Conflicted Civil Servant’ in the Texas National Security Review here

Get Blowback: A Warning to Save Democracy from the Next Trump here

Read ‘Fake Biden robocall telling Democrats not to vote is likely an AI-generated deepfake’ here

For a range of academic and conceptual work on the concept of ‘Power Distance’, consult here

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Much ink has been spilled about the legal definition of the crime of Genocide and if Israel has committed it in Gaza or if Hamas committed it on October 7th. In this pod, we are not examining those legal or moral issues. Adopting a non-legal, and non-humanitarian frame of mind, we are going to examine what are the underlying geopolitical, historical, and diplomatic reasons for South Africa bringing a genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice (ICJ)?

In this episode of Disorder, Jason Pack speaks to Sasha Polakow-Suransky -- deputy editor of Foreign Policy and author of ‘The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa’. The duo turn the telescope around and look squarely at South Africa, rather than looking at Israel or the Palestinians. They discuss the global implications of the ICJ case for South Africa and how it fits in the country’s decades long whiplash romances first with Israel then with the Palestinians, how South Africans see their role in the world, and whether South Africa’s actions and media campaign will further intrench ideas in the Global South that America’s stance on Israel’s actions in Gaza is grounded in hypocrisy. Then in our Ordering the Disorder segment, we debate is South Africa proposing an alternative order to the American-led international system or merely an alternative disorder?

Twitter: @DisorderShow

Subscribe to our Substack here

Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/

Producer: George McDonagh

Exec Producer: Neil Fearn

Show Notes Links

Read: ‘What South Africa Really Won at the ICJ’ by Sasha here

Read: ‘The Year Geopolitical Competition Returned to Africa’ by Sasha here

Listen to Today, Explained episode, ‘Israel at the International Court of Justice’ here

Read the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide here

Get Sasha’s book The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa here

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FAQ

How many episodes does Disorder have?

Disorder currently has 103 episodes available.

What topics does Disorder cover?

The podcast is about News, Podcasts, Politics and Government.

What is the most popular episode on Disorder?

The episode title 'Ep2. Who Referees Cyberspace?' is the most popular.

What is the average episode length on Disorder?

The average episode length on Disorder is 50 minutes.

How often are episodes of Disorder released?

Episodes of Disorder are typically released every 5 days.

When was the first episode of Disorder?

The first episode of Disorder was released on Sep 11, 2023.

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