Dr Michael Fullilove: Why middle powers matter - managing China in an era of Trump.

Dr Michael Fullilove is the Executive Director of the Lowy Institute. An adviser to Prime Minister Paul Keating, Rhodes Scholar and renowned foreign affairs expert, Dr Fullilove is a widely published author and a much sought after global commentator.

Misha Zelinsky caught up with Michael Fullilove for a chinwag about how Australia should interact with a rising China under Xi Jinping, the madness of US politics and what a second Trump term might look like, how open systems of government still have the upper hand, why the world might be one elected leader away from a new sense of calm, and why - despite everything - Michael remains an unabashed optimist about the future. Be sure to listen to Michael's special shout out to the 'Deep State'!

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