Denizen

In this episode, Marta Ceroni joins us to discuss systems thinking. The focus of our conversation is the life and work of Donella Meadows, a distinguished systems and environmental thinker in the mid-late 20th century. Ceroni stewards Meadows' archives and furthers her work as co-director at the Academy for Systems Change.

In our conversation, Marta and Jenny discuss Meadow's life, the key attributes of complex systems, and some of the leverage points to influence the outcomes of a system. They talk about the importance of information flows, being conscious of paradigms, and how we can move out of our heads and into our bodies to inform systems change.

• "We can't control systems or figure them out, but we can dance with them" [3:30]
• Marta's background [5:35]
• Meadows' background, education, and travels abroad [9:22]
• Key attributes of a system [15:26]
• Leverage points to change a system [22:00]
• Importance and power dynamics of information flows [22:24]
• Meadows' highest-ranked leverage points [24:11]
• Realizing the paradigm that there are paradigms [30:21]
• Moving beyond the intellect to the embodied aspects of systems thinking [32:45]
• The impacts of trauma and trauma-healing in a system [37:52]
• Meadows' envisioning talk and guided practice [40:49]
• Meadows' ecovillage [43:26]
• About the Academy for Systems Change [49:41]

Resources:

• The Donella Meadows Project at the Academy for Systems Change stewards an archive of her life and work
• Cobb Hill the on-going ecovillage that was her work and vision
• Denizen's summary of Meadow's work, Lessons from Donella Meadows.

Notable writings and talks from Donella Meadows:

• Thinking in Systems: A Primer this short and accessible book covers her essentials for systems thinking
• Dancing with Systems this essay outlines some of her most essential ideas
• Limits to Growth (1972) she was the lead author of this pioneering study about the sustainability of economic growth
• Envisioning a Sustainable World a speech by Meadows that offers the experience of visioning the world we want to bring into being
• Video archives of her teaching

We all know about all the things that are wrong with social media as we know it. It's a model where everything is centralized and the market dynamics foster very few competitors who just get bigger and have more power. Who builds? Who governs? Who owns? Where are the servers? Where do the applications sit? Where does the data live? It's largely in just a few companies that in many cases have walled gardens of content. This dominant model yields a tremendous centralization of power for tech executives who are incentivized by market dynamics, to grow and to extract and to capture more and more of our attention. So, how do we get ourselves out of this mess? Does the answer lie in decentralized social media?

Our guest for this episode is Evan Henshaw-Plath, veteran Silicon Valley engineer and CEO of Planetary, a decentralized social network.

In this episode we cover all things decentralized social media, including:

• The story of Twitter's "original sin" where it abandoned a federated model for a centralized one [4:14]
• A framework to think about decentralization across the Internet and social media [12:22]
• Distinctions between web3 and the dWeb (decentralized web) [15:18]
• What a protocol is, why it’s a core element of decentralized social media, and the current landscape of protocols [15:33, 23:37]
• Architecture and design considerations at protocol vs. app levels [28:39]
• Big debates in the decentralized social media space [31:31]
• Issues with blockchain based solutions [36:28]
• Evan’s vision for decent social media and what he’s up to with his startup, Planetary [38:56]

Resources:

• Denizen's writeup on decentralized social media
• Planetary's homepage
• Evan's homepage
• What obligation do social media platforms have to the greater good: A TED Talk by Eli Pariser
• ‍My first impressions of web3: by Moxie Marlinspike, who founded Signal
• The Battle for the Soul of the Web, The Atlantic Oct 2022
• dWeb principles‍
• ‍Web3 is Self-Certifying: by Jay Graber, the CEO of Twitter's spinout Bluesky

Charles is the author of several books, including The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible and Sacred Economics. His work spans multiple pillars of the Denizen Inquiry, including economics, culture, and consciousness.

In this episode, Charles and Jenny discuss gift economics, a very different model of exchange than capitalism. In a gift economy, goods and services are given away as gifts without an explicit agreement on giving anything in return. This does not mean there is no financial exchange -- in many cases, the consumer opts into paying an amount that is determined at their discretion after the good or service has been received.

Gift economies are moderated by social norms and were the dominant form of exchange in many indigenous cultures. Critically, gift economies are circular and relational as opposed to a transactional, and thus present a compelling example of a non-extractive economic model that is more aligned with natural law.

This episode covers:

• Why gift models more aligned with human nature [4:40]
• How gift economies induce gratitude and reciprocity [7:21]
• The essential cultural component of gift economies [12:06]
• Why the gift is a natural model for digital goods[13:24]
• How gift economies engender circularity vs. hoarding [15:38]
• Intellectual property and the collective inheritance of humanity [22:00]
• Charles' experience stepping into a gift model in his own work [26:20]
• Implementing a gift model [29:53]
• The circular, relational vs. transactional nature of gift economies [32:00]
• How the circularity of gift economies mimic nature [32:47]
• Navigating boundaries between gift and market economies [34:18]
• Synchronicity and the gift [36:50]

Resources

• The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible, Charles Eisenstein
• Sacred Economics, Charles Eisenstein
• The Gift, Lewis Hyde

Steward ownership is one of the single most important concepts to understand for those interested in reforming capitalism. Whereas all other models of corporate governance that seek to integrate purpose co-ops, public benefit corporations, B Corps, and PBLLCs leave intact a fundamental tension between purpose and profit, steward ownership instantiates profit in service of purpose in a way that is legally binding. Steward ownership is where the keys to the castle lie if we are interested in market economy that addresses the fatal flaws of capitalism as we know it.

Our guest for this episode are Derek Razo and Camille Canon, co-founders of Purpose US, a consultancy supporting companies looking to adopt steward owned governance models.

In this conversation Jenny, Derek, and Camille discuss:

• What is steward ownership? [4:41]
• Steward ownership vs. other familiar corporate governance models [6:50]
• Channels for profit in steward owned and other governance models [10:29]
• Importance of legally binding structures in reforming the economy [11:27]
• Value clarifying purpose amongst stakeholders [12:10]
• Steward ownership and securing purpose across multiple generations of leaders / protecting purpose against capture by any particular group's interests [13:01]
• Rethinking the definition of ownership [16:05]
• How steward ownership binds governance rights to purpose [18:37]
• Checks and balances to limit extraction with steward ownership [20:30]
• Legacy of steward owned models around the world [22:43]
• Camille and Derek's ladder of legal security for purpose driven governance [24:16]
• Entity types and legal forms for steward ownership [31:15]
• Steward ownership models vs. non-profits [33:29]
• Challenges accessing finance [35:13]
• Overcoming the growth stage financing gap without losing control [38:00]
• Innovative financing models [39:02]
• Founder leverage and alternative deal structures [40:24]
• The Purpose Futures Fellowship for fund managers [42:52]
• Steward ownership and DAOs [49:48]
• Web3 and new sources of liquidity [52:58]
• Current state of steward ownership interest and adoption [54:54]

‍Resources

• Steward Ownership: Rethinking Ownership in the 21st century A handbook outlining steward ownership
• Can Companies Force Themselves To Do Good? A feature in The New Yorker Magazine
• The Patagonia Structure in the Context of Steward-Ownership

This conversation investigates the fundamental challenges of a capitalism and outlines a vision for a post-growth economy that better achieves a just, sustainable society. Our guest, Donnie MacLurcan, is the founder and Executive Director of the Post Growth Institute. He's one of the most brilliant thinkers we've met on new economics.

In this episode Jenny and Donnie discuss:

• Defining post-growth economics [2:23]
• Distinction between capitalism and market economies [6:23]
• Capitalism, accumulation, and debt [7:32]
• Debt and money creation [10:04]
• Capitalism and debt accumulation [17:51]
• One planet lifestyles [20:31]
• Ecological limits, technology and Jevon's Paradox [22:23]
• Manfred Max-Neef, Maslow's heirarchy and universal needs [24:24]
• Defining a full circle economy [26:40]
• Circularity and indigenous cultures [27:43]
• Nonprofits vs. not-for profit [29:30]
• Prevalance of not-for-profit enterprise around the world [31:27]
• Industrial foundations [36:34]
• The problem with co-ops [38:18]
• Transitioning to a post-growth economy [40:28]
• Asset based community development [41:01]
• Post-growth economics and geopolitics [45:43]
• Sources for hope [49:32]