Courageous Conversations About Our Schools

Curiosity has been a common theme in this podcast. Conflict experts like my guests Amanda Ripley, Monica Guzman, and Peter Coleman say being curious and less judgmental is often a better way out of toxic conflict than making stronger arguments or presenting more facts. And, as we heard from our recent guest, Tim Shriver, it’s a much better alternative than treating one’s adversaries with contempt, which often makes matters worse. “Contempt only makes an enemy for your cause,” he says.

But how does curiosity work? How can we be curious about people whose perspectives we reject? What makes us incurious? I have not encountered anyone more qualified to answer these questions than Scott Shigeoka. Scott has devoted decades thinking about, studying, and talking with people about curiosity, and he recently wrote a book on the subject called Seek - How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World. His study of the concept leads him to distinguish between shallow and deep curiosity and to warn readers about “predatory curiosity” and “performative curiosity.”

In this episode, Scott explains why curiosity is so powerful, not just as a way out of toxic conflict but as a path to understanding the world and others on a deeper level. For these reasons, it’s something that must be cultivated in schools.

One of the questions I was curious about is, What makes students, or all of us for that matter, incurious? What gets in the way? Are some of us simply born to be more curious, or can it be taught? Can the desire to understand be extinguished? Tune in to hear Scott’s answers to these questions and his reflections on the various ways curiosity can spark deeper learning and strengthen our schools.

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This episode is part of our series on our sister podcast, Teacher Stories, on what schools can do to help save our democracy. Guests include Dr. Marvin W. Berkowitz, McDonnell Professor of Character Education at the Center for Character Education and Citizenship at the University of Missouri at St. Louis, and Dr. Kashina Bell, Deputy Superintendent for the School District of University City in St. Louis, Missouri. Both talk about character education - what it looks like, how it's done, and why it's vital to our democracy.

"I think the concept of the common good as a concept is an endangered species in democracies," Dr. Berkowitz says. "Every educator affects kids' character. And we want them to do it intentionally, and positively, and effectively...There is no moral future without moral children, and there's no democratic future without democratic children. Education is a critical piece of that."

Speaking about her former role as a school principal, Dr. Bell says, "I inherited a school that was really forgotten about...The teachers didn't want to be there. The kids didn't want to be there...We began the process of bringing our system back to health...We began establishing some values...We rooted ourselves in a common language to define our collective and individual responsibility to one another as well as to the community." In addition to boosting academic achievement, Bell says, "...our kids were no longer running away from the school. They really wanted to be in school, and they began to thrive."

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According to a recent Washington Post article, homeschooling is the fastest growing form of education in America. As many as 2.7 million students are currently being homeschooled. One of my guests, Heidi Sampson, is a veteran homeschooling parent from Maine and a four-term Republican legislator. She concedes that homeschooling is not for everyone but says, “The overwhelming evidence nationally for homeschooling is the fact that there's an opportunity for students to excel.”

Another guest, Nicole Doyle, a leader of the Georgia Black Home Educators Network in Georgia, says homeschooling is a form of “resistance” to people who blame Black parents for their children's poor educational performance. Homeschooling is also a way for Black families to ensure their children receive a culturally relevant education, she says.
What makes homeschooling controversial is that fact that the U.S. regulates it less than any other industrialized nation. In many states, homeschooling parents can simply educate as they wish with their children. They are not required to follow a curriculum or to administer academic assessments. As such, they are not accountable for what their children learn.
This is how it should be, parent rights advocates argue, but some, like Weston Brown who was homeschooled in Texas, has a different perspective. “I absolutely believe that there should be regulation, that there should be oversight...I grew up hearing the phrase ‘the rights of the parents’ over and over and over again, and it wasn't until I was in my early twenties that, for the first time, I heard, ‘What about the rights of the child to a basic education?’” Weston believes his parent’s intentions were good, but he expressed deep concern about the education they provided. “I learned things like the enslavement of millions of people was necessary for America's growth. I didn't know about of any of the key leaders of the civil rights movement.”
Samantha Field also expressed regret about her homeschooling experience. “My parents didn't know how to teach me any form of basic math beyond basic arithmetic. And once I reached algebra in high school, I was forced to try to teach myself. I was unsuccessful but attributed my inability to do that to being a woman, as I had been taught that women were innately incapable of understanding higher math.”
Heidi, the lawmaker from Maine, empathizes with Weston and Samantha, calling their stories “heart wrenching." She says there should be a way to “mitigate” homeschooling experiences like theirs, but cautions against government overreach. “The more you regulate, the more you're going to have issues and problems,” she says.
What inspired me most about this conversation is that my guests - each with vastly different experiences and perspectives - listened, empathized, and were eager to learn more from one another.
At the end of this conversation, Heidi said, “I have a lot of thoughts, a lot of takeaways...I could sit down with each one of you and just listen and just explore ideas...I think I have a pretty good feel of what's going on here in Maine, but to hear the different cultures is exciting...How do we best serve all these different cultures in the United States to homeschool their children to the best of their ability and give those children every opportunity to shoot for the stars?” Weston said, “I love having this conversation...and it could go on for hours.”
To set the stage for this civil exchange I started the conversation by asking each guest to describe a teacher who had a positive impact on their life. I didn’t include their responses in the episode, but starting with personal stories, as I do

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American democracy cannot survive without well-functioning schools that enable students to become good citizens and that teach them to appreciate what it means to live under a system whose only boss are the people themselves. That’s the claim my guest Brook Manville makes in his new book, The Civic Bargain – How Democracies Survive.

In this wide-ranging conversation about civic education, Manville says schools must cultivate “civic friendship,” one of seven conditions that have been present in all democratic societies going back to ancient Greece. “[Civic friendship] does not mean that you agree with everybody or that you necessarily personally like everybody,” Manville says. “It means that you know how to get along with them, you have enough respect for them, and they have enough respect for you...The way in which students listen, learn, and speak to one another takes place in a well-moderated classroom. That’s something you want children coming out of school that is deep in their souls by the time they graduate.” Manville also sees the need for more civic friendship among the adult stakeholders. “It's so discouraging,” he says, “when school board meetings turn into ‘riot fests.’ It's exactly what shouldn't be happening in a school. Not to say that there aren't emotionally good and valid points that are being exchanged, but part of civic education has to be the mindset and the process of working with tomorrow's fellow citizens, which young students will be.”

During this episode, I play an audio clip from Marvin Berkowitz, an expert on character education and a guest on a previous episode. Berkowitz says, “In democracies, we've lost the sense of what the common good is. Democracies have sort of devolved into a mathematical enterprise where everybody votes for self-interest, out of fear, out of hatred, bigotry, or out of ignorance. That never was supposed to be what democracy is democracy.” Berkowitz goes on to say, “There's no moral future without moral children, and there's no democratic future without democratic children...Character education is a critical piece of all that.”

Tune in to hear Manville’s response to Berkowitz and his call for character education. And find out what Manville thinks schools can do to promote civic education, another of the seven conditions he says all democracies depend on.

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One day after interviewing clinical psychologist Hayley Watson for Part 1 of this two-part series about the need for better mental health support in schools, Colt Gray, a 14-year-old student at Apalachee High School in Winder, Georgia walked onto campus with a military-style rifle and killed two other students and two math teachers. He also injured at least 8 others before he was taken into custody.

According to the shooter’s aunt Annie Brown, had been “begging for help from everyone around him.” Colt’s father, who has now been charged with several serious crimes, said that his son was “getting picked on at school,” and that other students “just ridiculed him day after day after day.”

Key takeaways from my conversation with Dr. Watson:

• The need to understand the shooter's perspective and the factors that may have contributed to his actions, rather than simply labeling him as "evil."
• The lack of adequate mental health resources and support for students who are struggling, and the importance of preventative measures such as teaching coping skills and promoting social-emotional learning.
• The trauma experienced (not just in Georgia but across the country) by the entire school community, including students, teachers, and families, and the need to provide spaces for processing and healing.
• The importance of ongoing conversations and emotional support, rather than focusing exclusively on security measures or avoiding the issue altogether.

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