
The World's First Astronomers - Episode 29
11/06/23 • 32 min
This episode will dive into the history of some of the world’s first astronomers, exploring how their knowledge has been passed down for more than 60,000 years. We are going to the southern hemisphere to learn about Australia’s Indigenous astronomy and the impact it has on our world today.
Our guest today is Peter Swanton! Peter is a Gamilaraay man from Mackay, Queensland, an astrophysics graduate, and cultural astronomer. He is actively involved in Indigenous astronomy, outreach, and research, and has a passion for the challenging yet critical subject of dark sky preservation. Peter will highlight the scientific importance of Indigenous star knowledge and the challenges and opportunities in preserving that history.
Join us as we hear the stories of Australia’s Indigenous Peoples, why constellations and star clusters are so impactful, and how issues like light pollution threaten the very field of astronomy itself. There is a lot to learn in this episode!
Key Takeaways:
- The Indigenous Peoples of Australia didn’t have a written language, they were only able to pass along information via spoken word, song, dance, and stories. There are an estimated 273 different language groups across Australia.
- While not all stars can be viewed from both hemispheres, all the zodiac constellations are viewable from either. Although, they will be upside down depending on which hemisphere you are familiar with.
- The Emu in the Sky is a popular example of how astronomy was used practically by the Indigenous Peoples. Depending on what direction the Emu was facing, it helped give insight towards Emu life patterns.
- Creation stories are stories that are passed down that talk about the physical existence as well as store important information. A popular story about Australia’s constellation the Southern Cross tells the story of the first person to die on Earth.
- A songline is one of many paths across the land (or sometimes the sky). Embedded within traditional song cycles, dance rituals, stories, and artistic expressions, these pathways enable individuals to traverse vast distances while reciting the songs that describe landmarks, water sources, natural features, and sometimes stars and constellations. These routes serve as crucial connections between Native group ancestral lands, carrying intricate geographical, mythological, and cultural information giving directions on how to travel across Australia to visit other Indigenous groups.
- Light pollution is quickly starting to impact our dark skies. Due to light from cities and satellites, it is harder than ever before to see the stars and galaxies with the naked eye. Light pollution is not only affecting dark sky preservation, but is also adversely affecting our vision, bird migration patterns, and newborn sea turtles.
- Peter's message to younger generations is to pursue what makes you happy.
Resources:
This episode will dive into the history of some of the world’s first astronomers, exploring how their knowledge has been passed down for more than 60,000 years. We are going to the southern hemisphere to learn about Australia’s Indigenous astronomy and the impact it has on our world today.
Our guest today is Peter Swanton! Peter is a Gamilaraay man from Mackay, Queensland, an astrophysics graduate, and cultural astronomer. He is actively involved in Indigenous astronomy, outreach, and research, and has a passion for the challenging yet critical subject of dark sky preservation. Peter will highlight the scientific importance of Indigenous star knowledge and the challenges and opportunities in preserving that history.
Join us as we hear the stories of Australia’s Indigenous Peoples, why constellations and star clusters are so impactful, and how issues like light pollution threaten the very field of astronomy itself. There is a lot to learn in this episode!
Key Takeaways:
- The Indigenous Peoples of Australia didn’t have a written language, they were only able to pass along information via spoken word, song, dance, and stories. There are an estimated 273 different language groups across Australia.
- While not all stars can be viewed from both hemispheres, all the zodiac constellations are viewable from either. Although, they will be upside down depending on which hemisphere you are familiar with.
- The Emu in the Sky is a popular example of how astronomy was used practically by the Indigenous Peoples. Depending on what direction the Emu was facing, it helped give insight towards Emu life patterns.
- Creation stories are stories that are passed down that talk about the physical existence as well as store important information. A popular story about Australia’s constellation the Southern Cross tells the story of the first person to die on Earth.
- A songline is one of many paths across the land (or sometimes the sky). Embedded within traditional song cycles, dance rituals, stories, and artistic expressions, these pathways enable individuals to traverse vast distances while reciting the songs that describe landmarks, water sources, natural features, and sometimes stars and constellations. These routes serve as crucial connections between Native group ancestral lands, carrying intricate geographical, mythological, and cultural information giving directions on how to travel across Australia to visit other Indigenous groups.
- Light pollution is quickly starting to impact our dark skies. Due to light from cities and satellites, it is harder than ever before to see the stars and galaxies with the naked eye. Light pollution is not only affecting dark sky preservation, but is also adversely affecting our vision, bird migration patterns, and newborn sea turtles.
- Peter's message to younger generations is to pursue what makes you happy.
Resources:
Previous Episode

Red Tails and Blue Skies: Tuskegee Today - Episode 28
The Tuskegee Airmen were an experiment by the US Army Air Corps to determine whether Black pilots could handle military flying. It turns out they could! But the Tuskegee Airmen fought a second battle – one against racial discrimination.
With an impressive combat record and war accomplishments, the success of the Tuskegee Airmen helped influence then-President Harry Truman's decision to desegregate the armed forces in 1948.
Our Guests today are Bill Shepard and Col. James Harvey. Bill is the former Vice President of Education for the Commemorative Air Force (CAF), and former CAF Red Tail Squadron Leader. On today’s show, he explores with us the path that led him to proudly fly the P-51C Mustang for the CAF Red Tail Squadron. We will also hear from Col. James Harvey who was a Tuskegee Airman, and his personal journey as one of the first Black Aviators in the US military.
From Bill's journey with aviation to the history of the Tuskegee Airmen, there’s a lot to explore in this one!
Key Takeaways:
- Bill earned his US private pilot’s license at age 16 while still in high school
- The 6 Tuskegee principles are: Aim High, Believe in Yourself, Use Your Brain, Be Ready to Go, Never Quit and Expect to Win
- The Tuskegee Airmen helped influence President Harry Truman to sign Executive Order 9981 on July 26, 1948, mandating the desegregation of the U.S. military.
- Lt. Col. James H. Harvey III was a pilot with the 332nd Fighter Group, known as the Tuskegee Airmen. He later piloted on the team that won the military’s first ‘Top Gun’ contest in 1949.
- The Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) was a U.S. Army Air Forces program that tasked some 1,100 civilian women with noncombat military flight duties during World War II.
- Bill's advice: Dream big, work hard, and never give up!
Resources:
Next Episode

America's Secret MiG-23s - Episode 30
An American MiG-23 pilot reveals long-held secrets in this in-depth conversation about a declassified program, Constant Peg.
On today's show, we’ll meet John Mann who flew in the first-of-its-kind adversary training program, Constant Peg, and take a deep dive into some of the most popular questions we got from you, our listeners. Established in 1977, this top-secret program aimed to train American pilots against the very same MiGs they may one day see in combat. Mann was an instructor who flew the MiG-21 and 23, and co-host John Barry flew in the program as a trainee. This one is going to be cool!
If you missed Part One, check that out on Wings Over the Rockies YouTube channel: America's Secret MiG-23s | Behind the Wings - YouTube.
Episode 30 marks the end of Season 3 of the Behind the Wings Podcast. We'll be taking a short break and will be back in the new year for Season 4.
Key Takeaways:
- John Mann served 24 years in the US Air Force where he had the opportunity to fly many aircraft, including the F-4, F-15, MiG-21, and MiG-23.
- Mann first flew as a trainee at Constant Peg and later flew the MiGs as a trainer.
- The MiG-23 was a very fast, beefy airplane, but it didn't turn well.
- Pilots would attend to overcome "Buck Fever", learn how the MiGs flew, and practice dog fighting.
- The maintainers at Constant Peg were the backbone of the program, facing specific challenges sourcing parts, with no maintenance book, and often receiving aircraft that were in a compromised condition.
- John Mann's advice: There are lots of opportunities in aviation. Go pursue your dreams!
Resources:
- Red Eagles: America’s Secret MiGs by Steve Davies
- CONSTANT PEG: Secret MiGs in the Desert > National Museum of the United States Air ForceTM > Display (af.mil)
- Red Eagle Brief
- Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 MLD "Flogger" | Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum (wingsmuseum.org)
- Dark Eagles: a history of top secret U.S. aircraft programs
- AF Declassifies Elite Aggressor Program (archive.org)
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