The Power of Play and Future of Work with George Kesselman

12/19/23 • 49 min

"Money is a very interesting kind of numerical way of measuring when you're levelling up. So that's where the distinction needs to be very clear. The way that I've positioned it in the book and what the research tells us is that if we force the games on people, it's very bad. But if we look at the games that they naturally play in their free time when they were younger, it's a very good predictor in terms of the type of work that they naturally would gravitate to. So if somebody is amazing and loves playing hours and hours of strategy games, and if we put that person in front of the machine, turning out widgets is going to be a very bad mismatch, and then we need to pay them a lot of money and continue trying to squeeze them to improve that performance. But if somebody is motivated by strategy games, and we give them the kind of problems that are very similar to the type of things that they naturally gravitate to they will be motivated. So we're not creating a new game for them, but we're looking at parallels and helping them to find that intrinsic motivation. And that's something that I think becomes super, super powerful where they then create their own games based on the work that we want them to achieve." - George Kesselman

Fresh out of the studio, George Kesselman joined us to discuss his new book "The Power of Play". He shares the main themes and key takeaways on how games will drive the future of work. We began the conversation with George providing an overview of how work has evolved from a craftsman environment to the industrial age and explained why we need a re-thinking of work using game play. He dived deep into the different personas of gamers in work life and offered what success would mean for his book in redefining the workplace.

Episode Highlights:

[0:44] QOTD

[2:02] Introduction: George Kesselman

[3:31] Inspiration behind “The Power of Play” book

[4:47] How George convinced Wiley of the book deal

[5:41] The intended audience for “The Power of Play”

[6:38] Main Themes & Key Takeaways behind “The Power of Play”

[9:31] Remote Work vs Return to Office

[12:02] The legacy of work 1.0

[17:24] Work 3.0 world

[21:04] Introduction to Gamification and Game Design in Workplace

[26:58] Different Personas in Games and how they map into real-world work

[29:42] The different motivations that draw people to work

[34:22] How to apply game development principles and design to work

[38:22] Predictors of Success in Matching People to Work

[40:40] Gauging Performances of Workers in remote and distributed environments

[43:13] Things not in the book and is a sequel in the works?

[44:58] What does success mean for “The Power of Play” book?

[46:13] Closing

Podcast Information: Bernard Leong (@bernardleong, Linkedin) hosts and produces the show. Proper credits for the intro and end music: "Energetic Sports Drive" and the episode is mixed & edited in both video and audio format by G.Thomas Craig (@gthomascraig, LinkedIn).

Episode Highlights:

[0:44] QOTD

[2:02] Introduction: George Kesselman

[3:31] Inspiration behind “The Power of Play” book

[4:47] How George convinced Wiley of the book deal

[5:41] The intended audience for “The Power of Play”

[6:38] Main Themes & Key Takeaways behind “The Power of Play”

[9:31] Remote Work vs Return to Office

[12:02] The legacy of work 1.0

[17:24] Work 3.0 world

[21:04] Introduction to Gamification and Game Design in Workplace

[26:58] Different Personas in Games and how they map into real-world work

[29:42] The different motivations that draw people to work

[34:22] How to apply game development principles and design to work

[38:22] Predictors of Success in Matching People to Work

[40:40] Gauging Performances of Workers in remote and distributed environments

[43:13] Things not in the book and is a sequel in the works?

[44:58] What does success mean for “The Power of Play” book?

[46:13] Closing

Previous Episode

The State of China 2023 with Shai Oster

"You will continue to see Western investment continuing to decline. The risk-reward calculations won't change in the next 12 months, as far as I can see. The Chinese economy is not about to take off. What you will see is the beginnings of some people who are willing to take the gamble. They are going to try different ways to exit. You're going to see more people experimenting with domestic IPOs, and onshore IPOs because you can get the money off. For example, if you're investing in LiDAR or approved industries, you can do a joint venture or a WOFE or anything. It'd be a joint venture to be able to try and do some kind of onshore listings. I think by chance will stay in this weird suspended state. I don't think we're going to get a resolution from them. The big question is - how much stimulus will the Chinese government throw at the economy and how far are they willing to go to goose the economy?" - Shai Oster

Fresh out of the studio, Shai Oster, independent consultant and former Asia Bureau Chief from The Information is back for the sixth time with the annual review of what is happening to the China tech ecosystem in 2023. The conversation started with Shai's predictions last year on what happened and what did not happen. From there, we discuss the major themes of the year: the decline and restructuring of venture capital in China, how the 2nd generation CEOs from Shein, Pinduoduo and Bytedance have successfully expanded globally as compared to their predecessors, the October surprise of Huawei's 7nm chip. Last but not least Shai offered his predictions in the road ahead for 2024.

Episode Highlights:

[0:48] Quote of the Day #QOTD by Shai Oster

[1:42] Introduction

[2:20] What has Shai been up to?

[3:18] Experience in Thailand is similar to being in China as compared to Hong Kong

[5:30] What did Shai get right or wrong in 2023

[6:00] Sequoia splits into 3: US & Europe, China and India & Southeast Asia

[12:41] Why Sequoia split out India & Southeast Asia to Peak XV

[15:08] State of Venture Capital in China, the 2023 Edition

[22:38] The restructuring of China’s tech ecosystem and where Alibaba Group is heading

[26:10] Why 2nd generation tech founders in Shein, Pinduoduo and ByteDance did a better job in expanding globally compared to BAT

[33:40] Will TikTok be banned in the US and will it go IPO as well?

[38:30] Investors in public China tech companies in the US have now read the regulatory risk section in their S1 filings.

[41:51] Huawei’s October surprise with their 7nm chip and the US sanctions might have accelerated the Chinese’s chip development and independence.

[45:52] Macroeconomics in China due to the declining real estate market in 2023.

[47:49] Why China is still booming despite the doom and gloom of less foreign-directed investments.

[49:55] Shai’s predictions on China for 2024

[53:46] Chinese entrepreneurs coming to Southeast Asia to start companies.

[55:49] Gaming in China and Tencent’s ability to respond to the Chinese government’s demands is still going on.

[59:10] Closing

Next Episode

Glints & Human Resources in the Age of AI with Oswald Yeo

“[Glints] We would like to still be around and building an enduring company. A big part of why many of us at Glints are building what we want is we hope that our children and grandchildren can be using Glints to grow their careers as well. So we want this to be an enduring company. Our mission is to help realize human potential. And we would like to be a company that's here to last. That's one. Two, concretely we see a lot of opportunities in the platform business and in our cross-border business. We want to double down in this market, getting to market leadership in the market we're playing in, Indonesia, and Vietnam, and also expanding out to new markets for cross-border recruiting, helping employers around the world tap into their 300 million labour force in Southeast Asia, helping them to hire the people here." - Oswald Yeo

Fresh out of the studio, Oswald Yeo, chief executive officer and co-founder of Glints joined us in a conversation to discuss how the startup has helped companies from all over the region to build out their talent hubs across Southeast Asia. We began the conversation with Oswald as he shared the journey of Glints and the importance of focus to find the product-market fit till scaling the company across the region. He shared his valuable insights on the application of generative AI in the human resources sector, particularly emphasizing its utility in cross-border recruitment and talent sourcing. Last but not least, he shared his vision on what great would look like for the startup in the future.

Episode Highlights: [00:48] Quote of the Day #QOTD by Oswald Yeo, CEO & co-founder of Glints. [02:22] Introduction: Oswald Yeo. [03:09] Origin Story of Glints. [05:54] Career Lessons from Oswald Yeo - Finding the Right People. [08:15] Overview of Glints and its vision & mission today. [11:31] The total market opportunity of HR in Southeast Asia which Glints is poised to capture. [13:09] Borderless Mindset and its implications to cross-border talent acquisition. [15:54] Critical Mass of a Talent Hub. [16:33] Cross Border Hiring and its advantages. [17:54] How Glints adapts its approach across different countries in Southeast Asia. [20:50] Pivotal moments for Glints. [25:21] How Glints found product-market fit in Southeast Asia. [30:05] The one thing that Oswald knows that very few do. [30:32] Glints’ current investors & how they help them to scale. [32:34] Advice for Startup Founders to navigate the difficult fundraising climate. [34:02] Generative AI’s role in talent acquisition and retention for HR. [37:52] What does great look like for Glints? [38:38] Closing.